French Lebel headstamp question


#1

I recently received an inquiry as to the meaning of the headstamp codes on a French Lebel cartridge.

C 48 F 2
P

This is the way is was presented in the letter. I assume 2 and 48 mean the 2nd quarter of 1948. What manufacturer or metal code factory is represented by CP and F?

Thanks for any help.


#2

CP= Cartoucherie Léon Paulet de Marsella


#3

Gary - in case you are not into Spanish, “Marsella” is, I believe, the Spanish name for “Marseille,” which is where the Paulet factory is (was?).

The Metal Supplier “F” is Tréfileries et Laminnoirs de la Méditerranée, St. Louis,
France.


#4

John, you are correct, I went to Municion.org and just “borrowed” the factory name.


#5

Vlad - don’t feel bad - I just did the same thing but off of a French-language list of supplier codes I have. Otherwise, I would not have been able to guess the French spelling even if I knew it was different from the Spanish, as French is a mystery to me. Your own language ablilities make mine hide in shame!


#6

Thank you all for your assistance and quick response. I forgot to forward the requestor’s other question:
Is the 8 mm Lebel still made anywhere in the world?


#7

Gary,

The 8mm Lebel is currently being produced by Prvi Partizan.

Brian


#8

8mm Lebel cases have also been produced quite recently (ie in the last 5 years) by Horneber, Bertram and by/for Graf (ie Graf hs probably from MAST or BeLL).

Stewart of South Africa and MEN also produced this calibre not that long ago.


#9

Thanks again.


#10

[quote=“WBD”]8mm Lebel cases have also been produced quite recently (ie in the last 5 years) by Horneber, Bertram and by/for Graf (ie Graf hs probably from MAST or BeLL).

Stewart of South Africa and MEN also produced this calibre not that long ago.[/quote]

Hello to NZ,

I do not knew, the MEN 8mm Lebel Rifle ammo…and if so, I want to see a photo of the hs… but I have samples of 8mm M92 Revolver cartridges (commonly named Lebel), made by MEN, Long time ago…
So, if you have proof for the 8Lebel Rifle ammo made by MEN, I would thank you, for confirmation and maybe a photo…
Thx in advance
Forensic


#11

Hello Peter, I have just read your post but am at work so don’t have access to all my material.

I definetly have a hs image with “MEN 8MM LEBEL” hs (not the actual cartridge) which I had been sent as a hs for a rifle cartridge but maybe that isn’t correct and it is in fact an 8mm Lebel Rev hs.

I will check my MEN info etc when I get home and will post an image of all the 8x50R Lebel sporting hs that I have.


#12

Brad, when I took record of the “GRAF 8x50R Lebel” headstamp back in July 2004 it was identical to the one used by PPU and Graf also listed this product as “Imported from Serbia”. Considering that many manufacturers have been involved with Graf’s ammunition over the years, it could have been made by another company in a later date. I’m not aware of a different headstamp variation, however.


#13

[quote=“WBD”]Hello Peter, I have just read your post but am at work so don’t have access to all my material.

I definetly have a hs image with “MEN 8MM LEBEL” hs (not the actual cartridge) which I had been sent as a hs for a rifle cartridge but maybe that isn’t correct and it is in fact an 8mm Lebel Rev hs.

I will check my MEN info etc when I get home and will post an image of all the 8x50R Lebel sporting hs that I have.[/quote]

I just found my 8mm MEN-Lebel cartridge…and it is a Revolver-Cartridge: HS (MEN 8MM LEBEL) with lead bullet…but I think, it was ones loaded by a French Company, which just bought the empty cases from MEN
Unfortunately, i do not have a Picture account to upload the pic…

Sincerely
PP Forensic


#14

Peter, here are those images. The MEN was sent to me by Otto Witt in 2007 as being a 8x50R but he may have been wrong and it could well be the 8mm Lebel Rev. Does it match your Rev hs ?

Neither the 2003 MEN catalog or The DWJ 6/1991 MEN article by Günter Frères, lists either Lebel case type. Someone else may have more MEN catalogs or production lists ??

Fede, thanks for the info on the GRAF - the images seem to show what you have stated; The PPU font size, position etc is very similar to the GRAF and I would agree it is most likely produced by PPU than MAST or BeLL who generally produced Graf cases.


#15

I never seen a 8 x 50 R Lebel made by MEN.

Here is a 8 mm Mle 1892 MEN case.

chassepot


#16

[quote=“WBD”]Peter, here are those images. The MEN was sent to me by Otto Witt in 2007 as being a 8x50R but he may have been wrong and it could well be the 8mm Lebel Rev. Does it match your Rev hs ?
Neither the 2003 MEN catalog or The DWJ 6/1991 MEN article by Günter Frères, lists either Lebel case type. Someone else may have more MEN catalogs or production lists ??

Fede, thanks for the info on the GRAF - the images seem to show what you have stated; The PPU font size, position etc is very similar to the GRAF and I would agree it is most likely produced by PPU than MAST or BeLL who generally produced Graf cases.[/quote]

Yes, thats exactly the hs which I have on a M1892 Revolver-Model round, and the same as shown from Chassepot here. So at least the list of the Lebel-Rifle Cartridges has to be corrected :-)

I have unfortunatelly no idea, who initially got the Lebel-Revolver cases from MEN, maybe Rivollier, the old Distributor from MEN-Products…but i am not sure, as nobody at MEN ist left, who may still knew this…It was never in a catalogue of MEN and may only a favour for someone in France involved in selling MEN-Products. The Cartridge itself was categorized in Categorie 1 and by that not very much distributable in France, I think. But Chassepot maybe knew better…

Thanks for the pics…

Peter


#17

Yes Peter, it does appear that the “MEN 8MM LEBEL” is the Revolver round and I will amend my database list and images.

Always good to get more accurate information. Thanks to the knowledge of Forensic, Fede and Chassepot !
l


#18

Brad, all the MEN catalogs I have describe military & police cartridges. Also, the advertisements by this company are almost non-existent.

After the .22 Hornet was introduced in 1981 a few ads of their products were published by the Albrecht Kind GmbH & Co. An AKAH catalog from the eighties may include a list of the sporting cartridges. Just a thought.


#19

At some point in the early nineties, MEN decided to no longer serve the civilian market and solely concentrate on military, police and other government customers. The latest hunting cartridge list I have is from 1991.
Making the French revolver cartridge must indeed have been some special favour for someone. An extremely rare weapon in Germany and I expect in most of the world. I was going to criticize MEN for using the wrong name “Lebel” for this cartridge but found out that “8 mm Lebel” is the official CIP name. Another CIP blackout.


#20

What is this one please? (taken from the first pic)