French M193 with GMCS?


#1

I have been told of a French performance specification document for a 5.56mm M193 which includes a very demanding plate penetration test, which seems unlikely to be achieved by a lead-cored gilding-metal jacketed bullet.

Did Giat (or any other French company) make M193 with GMCS bullets?


#2

Hmm - I judge from the uncharacteristic silence that no-one knows anything about steel-jacketed M193 bullets?


#3

I know that armor piercing bullet 223 were existing in the 80’s.

The bullet was copper color with black tip and the case was glsc

jp


#4

I know that armor piercing bullet 223 were existing in the 80’s.

The bullet was copper color with black tip and the case was glsc

jp[/quote]

And their name was PPA (pouvoir perforant amelioré)
jp


#5

[quote=“TonyWilliams”]I have been told of a French performance specification document for a 5.56mm M193 which includes a very demanding plate penetration test, which seems unlikely to be achieved by a lead-cored gilding-metal jacketed bullet.

Did Giat (or any other French company) make M193 with GMCS bullets?[/quote]
Tony,

I took a magnet and I tested all my “french M193” (F1A bullet with gilding metal jacket).
No cartridge reacts.

Only the F1 bullet (cupronickel clad steel jacket) reacts to the magnet.

The black tipped bullets react also (sometimes slightly) but because of the core.

Michel


#6

Thank you for your responses, gentlemen.

Michel, can you tell me how the F1 bullet differs from the F1A? (apart from having a steel jacket, obviously!).


#7

[quote=“TonyWilliams”]
Michel, can you tell me how the F1 bullet differs from the F1A? (apart from having a steel jacket, obviously!).[/quote]
I think that the F1 (CNCS) and F1A (GM) are identical apart the jacket.
Nevertheless, the F1 seems to be lighter (53.5 grains) than the F1A (55 grains)
The F1 was abandoned because of high barrel abrasion.


#8

Interesting, thanks Maverick.

Did the F1 ever enter service or was it dropped before being adopted?


#9

[quote=“TonyWilliams”]Interesting, thanks Maverick.

Did the F1 ever enter service or was it dropped before being adopted?[/quote]
Yes Tony, the F1 has been in service in the 80’s

Here is the french “ball” 5.56 cartridges :

F 1 / F 1 A
F 2 (F 2 A exists) see below
F 3 : imported M193 (here from ADCOM)
F 4 : french copy of SS109 (can also be seen headstamped FNB)
F 5 : imported SS109 (here from Great Britain)

The only difference between F 1 and F 2 is the primer : boxer for the F 1, “button” for the F 2)
So, they are difficult to differentiate.

Michel


#10

Thank you again, an impressive collection!


#11

Michel,
I know it’s going away from Tony’s original question but I was under the impression that the AD headstamp indicated Abu Dhabi and was made by a company called Mast Technologies, Nevada on contract for the United Arab Emerates. Is Mast Technologies another name for ADCOM?

Going back to the original question I have two French 5.56mm tracers, one with a GM jacket and one with a CNCS jacket. Could you clarify the designations for these two rounds also?


#12

[quote=“Jim”]Michel,
I know it’s going away from Tony’s original question but I was under the impression that the AD headstamp indicated Abu Dhabi and was made by a company called Mast Technologies, Nevada on contract for the United Arab Emerates. Is Mast Technologies another name for ADCOM?
[/quote]
I do not known more about ADCOM.

[quote=“Jim”]Going back to the original question I have two French 5.56mm tracers, one with a GM jacket and one with a CNCS jacket. Could you clarify the designations for these two rounds also?

[/quote]
I have the same cartridge without headstamp. I think that is an experimental tracer.

For the designation of the tracer round :

The TF 2 and TF 2 A exist also with the “button” primer.
The TF 4 was made at Le Mans factory with FN cases

Michel


#13

Jim - As far as I know, MAST Technologies made some of the first cases for ADCOM. I know they made the first 9mm cases, as I have a dummy round from them. I believe, However,that the ammunition itself was loaded by ADCOM in Abu Dhabi. They are somewhat of a player now on the International Market, with some pretty current 9mm Para sold in the U.S. in recent years.

John Moss


#14

Thank you John, thank you Michel.


#15

[quote=“Maverick1112003”]Here is the french “ball” 5.56 cartridges :

F 1 / F 1 A
F 2 (F 2 A exists) see below
F 3 : imported M193 (here from ADCOM)
F 4 : french copy of SS109 (can also be seen headstamped FNB)
F 5 : imported SS109 (here from Great Britain)
[/quote]
Michel,

Can you confirm that the F 3 bullet is non-magnetic?

Thanks


#16

[quote=“TonyWilliams”]Michel,

Can you confirm that the F 3 bullet is non-magnetic?

Thanks[/quote]
Yes, it is non-magnetic, at list the ADCOM that I have in my collection.
Don’t forget that the F3 is only a name for an M193 imported. It is not a french design.

Michel