Geco metal piercing pics?


#1

I was wondering if anybody had any photos of any of the Geco “metal piercing” loads in calibers other than .38spl or .357mag, or if any exist anywhere? The only photos I have are of various styles of .38spl and one type of .357mag, and this box photo from the June 1985 copy of the French magazine “Action Guns”:


According to the original article from that magazine, there were also 9x19mm, 9x18 Ultra, and .32acp calibers produced in that type, but I have never seen them.


#2

DK - I have searched my catalogs for listings of these rounds, and find that in the early to mid-1980s, the metel penetrating round is list in .38 Special and .357 Magnum, but not in any other caliber. The numbered catalogs intended primarily for the United States do not show them at all.

There is a .32 auto round with a similar shaped bullet that was an experimental. It may be the metal-penetrating, but I have no information that these rounds were ever serially produced. That does not mean they were not - it just means I have no information that they were.

Geco loaded some truncated 9 mm Para rounds in the post-war period, but the meplat is wider than the .38/357 MP bullets, and I would expect they are NOT metal penetrating types. I have not seen any Geco round with a bullet I would describe from shape, etc., as metal piercing. Lew Curtis would be a much better source for an answer on that caliber.

I don’t know how one would tell with 9 x 18 Police. The normal bullet shape for the cartridges, with no claim of “metal penetrating” on the box labels, is similar to the .38/.357 MP bullets.

With only the two calibers, .38 and .357 Magnum listed in the catalogs, I would think that if any other caliber was made in this type, that they were in experimental or trial quantities only, to make quick production easy in case a police order was received for them. These bullets would be illegal for domestic civilian German sales, I am almost sure. Much of the Geco pistol and revolver line listed in the general Dynamit Nobel Ammunition Cataloges, even though my editions are, for the most part, in English, were not listed in the numbered “North American” catalogs.


#3

Thanks John. My suspicion has been that they probably did not exist in the commercially available sense, and might have only been an intended course, or an experimental effort. When I was at the Woodin Lab last October, there were none there in calibers other than .38spl or .357mag either.


#4

I’ve never seen in France other calibers with a bullet “Metal Piercing” Geco


#5

I have a couple of rounds that may or maynot be part of this group. Both appear to have solid brass bullets.

The truncated round (175gr oaw) has a SINTOX headstamp and the short pointed bullet round (118gr oaw) has a Geco 9mm Para headstamp.

No information on the truncated round, but have a note on the point bullet round that it is an experimental from '89.

Note the knurl rim on the truncated round. Perhaps this indicates a proof or simply an experimental.

Cheers,

Lew


#6

Lew - on the knurled rim round, have you looked for signs of a reload (case head expansion, extractor mark inside-to of the rim, ejector mark on the head, etc?


#7

John, It is a very clean, new looking round-no evidence of a reload. In fact, it has a nickel primer with an intact red pa seal just like some of the other SINTOX headstamps in my collection.

Lew


#8

When this load was commercially introduced was only listed as “Full Metal Jacket” without any mention to “Metal Piercing” capability.

From Dynamit Nobal 1979 brochure (spanish edition):


#9

Fede - Catalogs from the early to mid-1980s, English version, refer to it as metal pentrating.


#10

And this one is from Dynamit Nobel c. 1978 catalog (spanish language edition):

Bullet weight and ballistic is listed exactly the same as the 1979 edition.


#11

Here a pickture from the two rounds I have.

Rgds


#12

A group of .32 Auto rounds with less than usual bullet shapes. I found this picture in my files, made in response to an email I got
from a new collector asking if 7.65 mm was boring because all the bullets were FMJ RN projectiles. The Geco cartridge in question
is in the exact center of the middle row. It seems early for the MP production, even for R&D. The headstamp is dated "70"
according to my records. I suspect that it was simply an offering for the German Police or some other Police inquiry. Probably
not commercial, as it is in a dated case. I was simply told that it was a Geco experimental.

Picture by John Moss


#13

Thanks for the photos John, Lew, Dutch, and Fede. I had not seen a SIB load in 7.65 before. Good to know.


#14

The 3 versions of Geco PM I know, and a copy Yugoslav, but with jacket made of tombac




#15


#16

Thanks for the images JMG! It’s great to see a pulled .38spl and .357mag Geco metal piercing bullet. The PPU load looks like the one I had been asking about in this thread (FMS bullet made by Northwest Bullets): http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10234&hilit=fms


#17

I remember reading about this type of bullet, made in Europe, in the late 1960s. I believe it was prior to 1969, but I cannot be sure. The information appeared in an article in one of the popular gun magazines of the day - probably Guns & Ammo - since that is what I read most in those days.

The bullets were the same conical shape with no curve to the taper between shank and meplat. They were solid bronze and turned on a screw machine. My memory says they were made in France by a company (or marketed by a firm) called “Mystere” or something very similar. They were being advertised on the U. S. market in caliber .38 Special or .357 Magnum. I believe there was a 9x19mm loading and a .45 ACP loading as well. They were sold only as loaded ammunition, I think; but I seen to recall a possibility of being imported as components as well.

Being bronze, they were relatively light weight. They were advertised has having very high velocities. (This was before Lee Juras and Super-Vel, if my memory serves.) It turns out they were loaded to European pressure levels and the .38 Special loading was right at the maximum for the U. S. (SAAMI) pressure levels for .357 Magnum. So that didn’t help their sales much.

They were not imported in any quantity to my knowledge. Then again, at that time I was a dirt poor young fellow about to enlist in the Marine Corps and certainly didn’t have any spare money for ‘exotic’ ammunition. (I could barely afford to buy surplus hardball for my surplus Ithaca 1911A1.) Nor do I remember seeing them offered in any of the gun shops I frequented then.

From what I know now, the French national police (I can never remember the exact title correctly) was still carrying a sidearm in .32 ACP. So it is quite possible that cartridge was part of the bronze bullet - high velocity experiment. That is a conjecture on my part.

The final nail in the coffin came later. The mainstream media were beating the drum about ‘cop killer bullets’ which would defeat ballistic vests. Those bronze bullet rounds would defeat the vests of that day and probably now. Not so long after that, the Leftists in the U. S. Congress caught the panic from the ‘media’ and importation of ‘cop killer bullets’ were banned quicker than one could say ‘politically correct’. Domestic manufacture was prohibited later.

Similar but not the same. When I was a humble but lovable Border Patrol Agent I purchased a box of Winchester Super X metal piercing .357 Magnum ammunition. I carried them in my duty bag for a number of years should I need to shoot up a vehicle. (There was no policy at the time regarding shooting at vehicles; for the tally book, the event never presented.) The bullets were similarly shaped, but according to the advertising, they were lead cored and fully jacketed with an extra heavy material. No mystery about those.


#18

Matt,
I have exactly the same box of your picture, if more pics are needed.


#19

Thanks for the input OldmanMontgomery - What you describe sounds like it might be either THV, SIB, Arcane, or SFAB, but is hard to say. I don’t recognize the brand “Mystere” or anything close to that.

Pivi - If you mean photos of the blue .38spl Geco box, then yes any photos you have would be helpful since I only have the one old photo from the magazine there.


#20

Sure Matt, will take the needed pictures