George Roth Case Pattern No's


#1

1 = My Reference shows 98 as .340 Revolver Centre Fire. and then 102 as .340 Revolver.
Is 102 Rim fire, or did G. Roth change there case pattern numbers at some stage.

2 = And is there an imperial designation for the 8 x 17.5 Auto Pistol
Thanks in advance for any info, Terry.


#2

Terry -
GR 98 is .340 Short CF (8.5x17) and
GR102 is .340 Long CF (8.5x21.5)
-JCP


#3

Terry,
Are there any headstamps, on the 8x17.5 Auto Pistol rounds? The closest I could find, is the 8mm Bergmann-Simplex, DWM 488. (8x18?)
Thanks,
sam


#4

The only specimens of 8mm Bergmann Simplex I have seen have DWM headstamps, or no headstamp. I cannot find any record of the G. Roth A.-G. ever making this round, or assigning a case number to it.


#5

Terry -
Your 8x17.5 is somewhat of a mystery. I can find two cartridges that are similar:

  1. 8 x 17.4 Schuloff (not to be confused with the 8 x 28R Schulhof). The Schuloff is a rim-less BN cartridge tested by the French Army in 1890 and is shown on S.F.M. drawing Nr. 10706. As it was not accepted by the army, this cartridge can be considered a prototype round.
  2. 8 x 17 Roth Model 1895. This has Roth number 298 and although the case length is 17, the actual cases measure somewhat longer.
    In either case, there is no imperial designation.
    Hope this helps. If you have more information about your cartridge, maybe I can find out more about it.
    JCP

#6

Thank you for the G. Roth information.

The second question has nothing to do with G.Roth! sorry for the confusion.
I am trying to identify an auto pistol round, See picture. [scans, not very good, bad lighting, but the best I can achieve at the moment]
case length = .685
projectile = .315 heavy crimp into cannalure, so may not be correct ??
rim = .345
slightly tapered case

O.A.L. = .973
Just looking at measurements on a list of metric cartridge sizes I have and guessing, the sizes of the 8x17.5 seemed to fit, but I have never seen one to compare, and it too might have a more common name as this is only a copy of a list put together by collector, from actual cartridges. but misses some info, such as whether they are bottle necked or semi rimed etc.
Thought if there was a U.S or English designation for this cartridge it might help me.
Just editing again, compared it to 32 ACP, 35 S&W AUTO and 8mm STEYR but the difference in size would eliminate these.
Terry.
NO HEADSTAMP


#7

After measuring a 35 S&W by REM-UMC with the sizes
case = .675
pill = .309
rim = .346
oal = .966
and then checking various references to sizes, I think my cartridge is a 35 S&W auto JUST THINK BUT NOT SURE!
as the projectile of my round is heavily crimped into a cannalure making
measuring difficult to be sure of, but the neck below the crimp is .344
The case length is the problem I have! As my references show .670 , .672
and .675.

Is the length of my case .685 within tolerances for an auto pistol cartridge or is it still possibly a metric pistol cartridge to be marked with a question mark.

Above the cannalure on the projectile [which may be on the ogive and therefore incorrect] is still .312 [calipers] and .311[micrometers] and if I hold the calipers rubbing on the case mouth it is .315 with a querie!
In one publication Pistols of the World by Hogg it shows projectile of 35 S&W as .320! So is this round still within the tolerances to be a 35 S&W AUTO or is Hogg wrong again.

                             Terry.