George Roth number


#1

Not finding reference to GR no. 8.
I think this is a 8.2x56.6 Mannlicher Schonauer?


#2

Hi Bruce, it refers to the caliber 8mm / 8x56 M.S. Not a case type number as such.


#3

Thanks Pete.
I thought the GR numbers were case type.


#4

Krag - there were G. Roth Numbers for primers and bullets as well, and do not seem to duplicate any of the case numbers. The only source I have, a G. Roth wall chart (Reproduction) that shows a number 8, would indicate it is a specific primer type, not a case or bullet. Does anyone know of any G. Roth case number 8? I believe the case number for the 8mm/7.9 Mauser was a three-digit number, but I am way out of my comfort zone here. If the 8 was a primer number, and the 7.9 had a three digit Roth number, that would confirm Pete’s identification of the headstamp in question to be the caliber/case type, not the Georg Roth catalog number.

John Moss


#5

The G.Roth case numbers have been a confusing issue for a long time. The fact that some handgun and shotshell cases appear to use Calibre/Gauge numbers rather than case numbers (as in the example above) make cataloging these extremely difficult. Duplicate numbers and gaps in the sequence have lead to several lists of these numbers which are contradictory. The 1994 list by Josef Mötz in the DWJ and it’s additions are probably the best starting point.

However over the last few years Josef Mötz has come into contact with several Roth Display boards which he has been analysing to produce a 3rd volume of his Austrian Cartridges books but that has been taking awhile and I can understand why.

One of these boards was shown in an ECRA bulletin a few years ago and it shows the complete first 144 (maybe 145) cases in the G.Roth case number series and I have shown a version of that image with super-imposed numbers and a scale to aid understanding of that board:

What it does show is that:

  • All case numbers were allocated
  • Bullet numbers and primers numbers are separate numerical lists
  • This board covers all the cases up to the c1884 Roth catalog
  • Known Roth numbers from catalogs do match these cases. (eg #143 is the 10x60R (400), #88 is the 9x47R MB and normally uses a #15 bullet which clearly isn’t #15 on this board ie Bullet and case numbers are separate lists).
  • #8 looks like it could be an 8mm Revolver cartridge

Evidently there are several more of these consecutive numbered boards, plus other boards are also known and Josef has a Major (now Colonel) job on his hand (Pun intended) !

I assume this will stimulate some discussion on this topic !?


#6

Here is the #8 in question
case length 53.36mm
rim 11.86mm
head 11.84mm
bullet 8.22mm


#7

Case length 53.36mm ?


#8

A hand drawn G Roth headstamp-type / style list E. L. (Gene) Scranton put together some years ago has this headstamp listed with 8 as being the caliber & the round being the 8x56 Mann Scho…
I have two variations, one is the same as Krag56’s and the other with a flat nosed soft point bullet, both CNCS jacketed. The one like Krag’s has a 56.30mm cl while the other has a 56.36mm cl.

In my remarks above which I shall correct / edit I was going off the top of my head when I stated “or 7.9”

Some day I’ll learn…

Sounds like the Red Green mans-prayer? “I’m a man & I can change, if I have to, I guess…”


#9

To make it more complicated, at some time the Austrian “G Roth” numbers and the Czech made “J Roth” case number codes diverged so some of the post WWI case numbers assigned by GR and JR are different. An example is the 9x19mm.

Cheers,
Lew


#10

Could this be a 8x54mm Krag-Jorgensen?..Pete.


#11

Hi Bruce,
Can you recheck the case length please? I have a 8 00 GR headstamped 8x56 MS, and the neck does look a bit longer than the one you pictured. It is about 56.2mm case length, with about 8.21mm bullet. (11.9 rim and 11.8 body).
Thanks,
Dan


#12

Dan you are right.
Case Length 56.36mm
My mistake ;)


#13

Thanks Bruce,
We are all back on the same page! Nice hs!

Dan


#14

I think we have discussed this before but…

---------It appears that sometime c1923 the JR numbering scheme has changed. At this time the “JR” monogram was first used and up to then J.Roth had used the “GR” monogram with 6-point stars rather than the 5-point stars of G.Roth. The “JR” monogram hs was used from c1923-1928. It is my understanding that the first known dated “JR” hs is “JR/19/IV/23/” (8x50R Mann) and the last known is "JR/19/XI/28/ (7,9x57).

The following J.Roth numbers do not match the G.Roth numbers (from c1923):

{j894 : 9.1X40R “JR 894 9.1x40R” T35
{j895 : 6.5X58R SAUER “JR 895 6’6x58 1/2” GSP18
{j897 : 9MM PARABELLUM “JR//897//”


#15

To add to the confusion, yet reinforce the generic number theory, I have several .320 Short Case Revolver cartridges with the “GR | * | 8 | * |” headstamp. I’ll post a pic when I can.

Dwight…

OK, got it wrong - they are actually " 8 | * | GR | * | " .

First image is the .320 CF Revolver short case (one also supposes there should be a .320 Long).
Second image is a 6.8mm Gasser Revolver which is listed as GR# 430 - a shortened .320 Long case.
Now this could indicate the “8” being a generic 8mm headstamp as the .320 is arguably an 8mm.

Interesting in that the entire 6.8mm Gasser case is stained black (visible on the headstamp). Why?

Dwight…

320%20CF%20Revolver%20Short%20Case%20GR%208%20headstamp
8%20Gasser%20Revolver%20GR%208%20headstamp


#16

Hi Dwight
Here is E.L.'s listing on this headstamp. The red dot & the pencil number at the right is my collection number. The others are apparently ( I think) those he examined.


Re your blackened case. I have no knowledge on this example but have seen cases that appeared to be factory blackened, but the blackening was just the result of improper storage.