Happy collecting, Peter
Happy collecting, Peter
Sorry for this very late question but this is the only one topic talking of it i’ve found on internet.
I’ve got one in hand, and i now need the exact name of the shell. It seems that “le IG 18” is in fact the name of the weapon, not the shell.
Could you please tell me where you’ve found this documentation ?
Thanks a lot.
The designation of the projectile is “Infanteriegranate 38”.
This is the closest i’ve found but it appears JGR38 shell does not have any tracer
Pleaste note that it is not “JG” and “JGR” but “IG” and “IGR”. This is the same unnecessary mix-up that has happened with the 8x57 IS/IRS (so-called “IS”/“JRS”) cartridges.
The diagram is from a 1946 Ministry of Supply Publication - “Ammuntion Bulletin”
The words for the diagram -
Did they really think it was called Jnfanteriegranate/Jnfanteriegeschütz? :-)
Ole, the British paper referrs to the designation of the gun and only later they name the HEAT round.
But the German designation is indeed “Infanteriegranate 18” for the HE variant.
My point is that the report specifically uses “J” instead of “I”. In my somewhat easily irritated eyes it looks rather absurd to mix the two letters in an English language report (I’m aware of why the J and I would be mistaken, but still…)
The mix-up of “J” and “I” in German ammunition context is a pet peeve of mine (e.g. “8x57 JS”).
I assume the British simply did not know that the Germans tried to say “I” and sowith had no reason to correct the “J”.
you are right that the I/J question is absurd, even to a German.
I think the origins are closely connected to the wide use of Fraktur printing fonts (often called Gothic in English) in Germany. In most Fraktur fonts, the letters I and J looked nearly identical. In others the appearance was even absolutely identical, for example in the font used in journal Deutsche Jäger-Zeitung. Because of this, the letter I in Fraktur print might have been taken for a J and this became a wide-spread practice.
An example from before 1900 is the primer variant for Patrone 88 developed in the Bavarian state factory near Ingolstadt. It became standard for the entire production under the designation “88(J)” (printed this way in a Latin font in regulation DVE 279) with J representig Ingolstadt.
What we know today as 8 x 57 IS was in the official listing for the 1939 proof law named “8 x 57 JS”, the J clearly representing “Infanterie” (as contemporary authors wrote). In my experience, it always has been pronouced in German like the letter “I”, not like “J”, but always written “J”. You will find the J in all German gun publications up to 1983, the year CIP decided to rename it to “8 x 57 IS”. Even today you will still find J.
There are examples of the opposite. I have yet to see a copy of Rommel’s “Infanterie greift an” where the first word is written Jnfanterie.
In the end, I have no convincing explanation why exactly “J” was so often used in German texts (Fraktur or not) in place of letter “I”. But its use in this role in Germany up to about 1940 is evident.
Yes, as far as I know this is the agreed-upon history. The interchange you mention of I/J was common in Norwegian and Danish as well, where names like Bjørn could be written as both Biørn and Bjørn (it also means “bear”). The word “kiøbmand” (merchant) is nowadays written as kjøpmann in Norwegian.
København (Copenhagen in Danish) was also written as Kiøbenhavn in older documents and newspapers(the Kø- is pronounced as Kjø- in Nor., the same as Kiø- would be).
The differences between I and J in older German handwritten and printed fonts were very small. One sometimes easy way to tell them apart is that the leftward hook of the I would end as a horizontal line, and the hook of the J would continue to curve upwards toward the stem of the letter.
As for handwriting, typically the J would have a strikethrough, whereas the I would not (the hook would stop before striking through the stem).
Here’s some Fraktur in Unicode; respectively I and J: 𝕴 𝕵 - not very easy to tell apart!
My Norwegian teacher in 4th-7th grade was in his older years (I believe he only taught a few classes after ours before he entered retirement) and his handwriting (and teaching of it) was evident of it. I learned to write both the capital letter J and the digit 7 with strikethroughs to tell them apart from I and 1. We must have been some of the last classes to learn it like this, the kids I teach today sometimes ask why I do the strikethroughs (as nowaday kids barely learn handwriting as all since they started using iPads - or should I write jPad? ;-)). I have to admit I get confused sometimes when their l, i, and 1 look alike, and 1 and 7 are impossible to tell apart…
For some reason, it really grinds my gears to see the “dumbing down” where big manufacturers of ammo, for example Norma, adhere to this incorrect “JS” and “JRS” use, while they more than likely are perfectly aware that it should be “IS” and “IRS”.
I frequent a Norwegian hunting forum where there occasionally are people asking if 7x57 or 8x57 IS/IRS is the same as JS/JRS or if it’ll blow up their guns…
Doesn’t help that gunstores are selling rifles chambered for 8mm IRS and ammunition labeled “8 x 57 JRS”.
English had the same problem with I and J as did the other Germanic languages but it was resolved at an earlier date. It is not at all uncommon to find an author listed on the title page of a 16th or perhaps 17th century printed book as, for example, Iohn Iackson. Jack