There is a previous thread titled “Unknown Rifle Cartridge”. Fede was extremely helpful, as always, in identifying this round. Now I would like to continue this discussion focusing on this cartridge and the candidate rifles.
My original post was:
"I have had this round for over 15 years. I just ignored it since the jar it came in was full of very interesting rounds from an interesting source, and this looked like a corroded bit of junk. Today I was digging around in the box picking out a set of items for ECRA, and decided to take some steel wool to the headstamps and had a real surprise. The headstamp is WWI German!
And the case is copper plated steel.
This made no sense since the dimensions are all wrong for a 7.9x57mm Mauser
overall length: 61.7mm
Case length:: 42.5mm
bullet dia: 8.17mm
head dia: 11.91mm
weight: 273.5gr
One side of the case has some deformation as shown like it may have been resized. I would consider it someone’s dingbat except it came to me directly from an individual who had held important arms and arms positions in the US Army during WWII and after the war worked for other government activities. He is mentioned by name in HWS, Vol III and I am sure Frank Hackley would recognize his name. His government work also resulted on a close relationship with the White Lab He was not a collector nor a tinker. He gave me his “Reference Box” which contained this round. I wonder if it was made by a friend as a joke, but I don’t believe he was the kind of guy who would have kept it in his Reference Box.
I suspect it still belongs in a junk box, but would appreciate opinions!
Cheers,
Lew"
Fede than supplied the two following posts offering a possible identification of the item:
"Lew, certainly not a dingbat! Examples of this cartridge with different headstamps were found at the Krieghoff factory in 1945 and it is believed that they could be for the Gewehr 28 (System Heinemann) rifle developed by Rheinmental-Borsig. Known examples seem to be dummies or concept cartridges, because none was found loaded. Other examples surfaced years ago in an European collection, including a 7.9x35 also made from a 7.9x57 case.
Great junk box find, congratulations!
Regards,
Fede"
And;
"John, I don’t know why the cartridge looks like this, but there is a note about the origin at the Woodin Lab. I assume that it was found by Col. Jarrett and later passed to Bill, but I don’t have more information.
It is also documented that the Rheinmetall rifle was designed for a 7.9x42.5 cartridge, among other calibers. The US tested this rifle in .276 Pedersen.
As Lew mentioned above, it looks like junk, but in this case the source is everything.
Regards,
Fede"
JPeelen also offered:
“To reform a steel(!) 57 mm case in such a way that it has a neck starting at 42.5 mm --where wall thickness is considerable-- must have been a difficult undertaking. Doubtless it was done in multiple steps, but I am not surprised that the case buckled under the large forces necessary.”
Finally I contributed:
Fede,
Great information!
John,
Good questions. This distortion only appears on one side of the cartridge and I intentionally took the scan to show the distortion. I thought it was from case resizing. The neck below the bullet has a slight depression of less than 0.1mm on average when compared to the case mouth, both the case mouth and the neck below the bullet have more variation than this when measured at different points around the circumference.
The round looks like it has been through a fire or otherwise blackened.
The individual who gave me this item was commissioned in the Ordnance Corp before WWII. He went to England well before D-Day commanding the US Foreign Weapon Evaluation Unit as both a Major and Lt Col. I suspect he and Jarrett would have been well acquainted with each other. He and his guys assembled the first Stg44 the allies got their hands on, from captured parts of destroyed guns, and he fired the weapon and wrote the first allied report on the weapon. He had a copy on his bookshelf and, as I remember, it was dated shortly after D-Day. He was very proud of this. He considered it a good weapon when fired semi-automatic but was pretty dismissive of its effectiveness fired fully automatic sweeping an area.
It sounds like this is likely the 7.9x42.5mm or something in the family! Guess I will put it in my cabinet with my other neat non-9mms.
Any other information appreciated. Dutch probably has something insightful to contribute!
Lew"
That is the relevant material to date.
I have found the following images of the Heinemann rifle from the late 1920s.
The 276 Pedersen version mentioned by Fede:
I could find no information on the German riHeinemann rifles or the 7.9x42.5mm cartridge, or any related cartridge.
I would like to find out more about this cartridge and/or the gun that fired it. Even an image of Bill Woodins note would be appreciated.
Anything on this cartridge and associated weapon(s) would be apprediated.
Cheers,
Lew
