German 9mm & 7.9mm Red & Black Plastic Ex Rounds


#1

Great to have the Forum back in business!!!

Thanks Chris. Well Done!

I am working on an article for the IAA Journal on the German Red & Black plastics through 1945. The article is near complete but a few questions remain and I have been waiting for the Forum to come back up to see if the members can help.

• Does anyone have documentation of how these Plastic Ex rounds were used by the German Army, Navy or Luftwaffe??? Apparently they were part of the Military Gunsmiths tool box along with some other early tools, but I have no firm documentation on this.

• Has anyone seen these plastic rounds illustrated on German military training charts??? I have seen a number of these charts but they all seem to illustrate the nickel plated metal Ex rounds, not the black and red plastics

• Is there any evidence of use by the German Navy??? I have found the title page of a Luftwaffe document on the 7.9 but not the document itself.

• There have been reports of these nts rounds dated 1945. Can anyone confirm this round?

• Has anyone seen aux, byw or dnb plastic Ex rounds dated after 1942 in either 9mm or 7.9mm??? Also interested in ay or lpk items dated after 1943.

• Does anyone have photos of sectioned Ex rounds (white background preferred) or x-rays. The base/core construction on these rounds differed by manufacturer and over time. Any images of the base/core structure would be very welcome. Please include the maker and date of the round if known. Otherwise an image of the remaining head would probably allow us to identify them.

• I have box photos of the ay 9mm and 7.9 Ex rounds and of the lpk 9mm rounds. Other box labels are pretty scarce and would be appreciated.

• The article will not only include the 9mm and 7.9x57mm rounds but also the 7.9x33mm, the 7.9x94mm and the 7.9x107mm. Anyone who has any information on these last three, please post it or send it to me.

• If you have any other items, information or specimens that you think might be of interest, please post it or send it to me on an email.

Am on a bit of a tight schedule to get this done so please post sooner rather than later.

I am not including the post-WWII DDR black plastic Ex rounds in this article.

Cheers,
Lew


#2

Lew, Regarding training charts, yes the did appear on some.

One is a Chart titled “Munition für Schußwaffen 98 und MG, Pistole 08 und Kleinkaliber,” Published under the Unterr9chstafel von Oberst Schmt, Serie M 1 and published by verlag R. Eisenschmidt. Berlin NW7, Mittelstr.18. The copy of the chart that I have is undated.

The rounds were pictured under the heading “Exerzier - Patronen,” showing the black plastic found as “Aus schwarzen Kunststoff” designated as “S” only.
The red plastic one is “Aus rotem Kunststoff” and is designated as “SK”.
Just for the record, the more common fluted, one-piece brass dummies made up to 1940 are designated as type “S•” with the dot actually placed higher and more like the sybol for “degree” which unfortunately I cannot seem to reproduce here.

Oddly, although the chromed 9 mm 08 dummies are shown on the above chart, the plastic ones are not. Only the 7.9 x 57s are shown.

I had an original chart for “Übungspatronen” which as I recall, also showed them, but you could confirm that with Dak21, who is the current owner of the chart.


#3

Hi Lew,John

Here is the chart mention by John.
Under the Messing and Black S you can read
that these 2 rounds are used up to be replaced for the red ones.


451kr.


#4

Lew,

Here a picture of a small German toolbox compleet and in new condition.
Toolbox is date 1940.

451kr.


#5

I am surprised to see the red plastic dummies in that tool kit. I would have expected to see the Werkzeugpatronen there, instead. Not contesting that the plastic ones belong there; simply an observation and half-question on my part.


#6

John,

When you are looking good, you see at least 4 werkzeugpatronen.

451kr.


#7

451kr - I guess I see something that could be them in those clear bags out to the right, with the red Ex.patr. on top of them. Hard for a old, blind fat man to see them. Thanks for letting me know they are there.


#8

I don’t see a date on either the Meine Munition or on “Munition für Schußwaffen 98 und MG, Pistole 08 und Kleinkaliber,” though the images are essentially the same. The dates on the headstamps on “Munition für Schußwaffen 98 und MG, Pistole 08 und Kleinkaliber,” range from 1925-1929. The 9mm illustrations are prior to introduction of the mE bullet in 1939/1940. The material on Ex cartridges looks like 1941/1942.

Does anyone have a firm date on this material??? It could be as early as 1930 if you believe the headstamps. Pinning down the date of this material would be very helpful.

Cheers,
Lew


#9

Lew - Be careful on your calculations of dates. There are more than one edition of the charted that I quoted. The one I quoted from is a reprint, and unfortunately, it is on a wall with most of the bottom half now covered as due to my need for room for things, I have now used the top of my safe, above which the reproduction chart is hanging, for a shelf. To see my whole chart would take about a half hour’s work which I would rather not due. It is a very cluttered part of my room.

I have another original chart of the same title hanging on a door. The headstamqps shown on it are all pre-1930, and yet the chart is dated from 1940. I don’t think many conclusions can be drawn from those dates, other than that they either were cartridges at hand, or previous drawings at hand, that were copied for that chart. The 40-dated chart does not show any of the plastic dummies.

I am upstairs now, so I might get spelling wrong here, but my original chart says "11 Auflage 1940 which to me, in English, would mean 11th edition 1940.
So it is possible that there were ten editions of this chart prior to mine, and the replica chart is obviously later than my original since it shows the 7.9 plastic Ex.patr.


#10

Lew, I forgot to add that the drawings on the material 451 posted on this thread are the same as on my replica chart, but mine is just that, a wall chart, not a page from a manual. It seems the same illustrations were used on more than one published item at the time.


#11

Lew, these are also described in the April 1941 edition of the Wa16 chart titled “Die Munition für die Handfeuerwaffen u. M. G.”, as shown below. Regards, Fede.


#12

According to an older wall chart (still showing Platzpatrone 27) the " Exerzierpatrone S’ " (read a point for the single quote) had a predecessor plainly named " Exerzierpatrone S ". The drawings of both show an identical outward appearance, so from the chart it is impossible to say what the difference was.
This chart is a modern reprint with no hint of the original edition.


#13

Edited 21 Mar 15-11:00 EST-Added additional poster version at bottom!

Thanks, this is exactly the conversation that I am interested in. I from the older chart, I could make the case that it dates from 1930 because of the items described, or I could make the case it dates from 1941 or 1942 because it shows the red plastic 7.9 Ex. I don’t have an opinion and am looking for some dates.Are there things on the chart that clearly must date from sometime later than 1930??? Other than the red plastic Ex since it occurs with no headstamp so can’t be dated with what I know now.

Fede’s April 1941 edition of Die Munition, is also interesting since it illustrates an 7.9 Ex round headstamped P S Ex 40 which I have also seen on a Polte drawing but which has not shown up as far as I can tell. I specifically asked the Woodin Laboratory if they had one and was told “no” and those 7.9 experts who have visited the Laboratory have not offered a photo of one.

John, I really appreciate the info you and 451kr and Fede and others have provided, Knowing the document (I think you are referring to the one shown below and not the Meine Munition shown by 451kr) is 11th Edition 1940 is another piece of data. Perhaps someone can tell us whether the 1st edition was Jan 1940 or 1929! both these to seem the most likely readings of this info.

Does anyone know how often this document was published?

These charts offer some interesting indications, but more insight and data is needed before they can yield facts. Please keep the data coming.

Thanks for all the help.

Cheers,
Lew

A friend sent me an earlier version of the poster above which does not include the plastics. I have no date for this poster, but clearly the poster above is later than the one below.

The poster above also shows the WWI S Pr round which is missing from the earlier poster below. Does anyone have an idea why this bullet would be added in the 1930s or early 1940s??? And, speculate on when it would have been added.

Help appreciated. Thanks!

Lew


#14

Lew - I don’t understand your question about “are there things on the charts that date them after 1930?”

I mentioned in my answer to your initial question about dating that the original wall chart I have, which is hanging in a place where I can still read the entire chart, is dated 1940. It is the chart that did not yet show the plastic dummies. The dates on the cartridge headstamp drawings have no real significance in context to the TYPES if cartrudges shown on the chart. No conclusion about the date of the document, not that it is needed, can be drawn from them. The dates of the charts themselves are conclusive.

Judging from a copy of a chart on standard size writing paper that I found in my files, and which appears to be identical to the one hanging above my safe with the lower half concealed by library items stored on top of my safe, it is not dated, but the plastic dummies certainly put it after 1940.

The real question about these charts is why the do not show the plastic 9 mm black and red Ex.Patr.?

These charts are not, of themselves, real studies of all the types of ammunition available to the German soldier. For example, there is not a single Grenade blank, Cartusche or Patrone, on the chart, nor a B-Patrone, etc.
The B-Patr. was covered on the “Übungspatrone” chart I had, along with some other types. I assume there were a whole series of these wall charts covering various things. I also had one for the K98k but forget if it had any ammo types on it. Dak21 has that chart now as well.


#15

John, Without a photo of your chart, I had no idea what chart you were talking about.

I only saw the second chart I posted within the last 45min. If your chart is the same as the one on the bottom of my post just above, and is dated 1940, then it does nail down the date as 1941 or 1942 which would make sense for the 7.9 Red and Black plastic.

Thanks for clarifying. That is a big help.

Cheers,
Lew


#16

Lew,

The poster you showing with the S.pr round is intended for
the Police . It`s mention on the lower right on the poster not
seeing in the picture.
Even all headstamps shown are from 1925 until 1928 this poster is probably pre WW2

451kr.


#17

Lew - My 1940 chart has a word I forgot after looking at it. It says “11.veränderte Auflage 1940” but I don’t think that essentially changes the meaning I originally ascribed - now I read that as “11th change edition 1940.” And yes, it is the second chart you show.

It is a shame that the bottom is cut off like it is on the second chart you showed. What is visible is identical to my chart dated 1940. Regarding the comment by 451, my original chart has no notification on it anywhere that the information is for the Grenzschutz or the Politzei.


#18

John,

Here a picture of my poster it`s the same as shown by Lew.

451kr.


#19

451 - that is interesting. My poster, for ammunition content, is also the same as the one Lew shows, but at the bottom right position where yours has the security advice and the comment that it is only for the service use of the police and border(?), mine has the publishing information. There is no security or publication prohibition nor any mention of which service it is intended for.

It seems there are many versions of what is basically the same chart.

I will take a picture of my chart when I have time, and send it to Lew. I will leave it up to him if he wants to post the picture here. I don’t post pictures on the forum. I had no success trying originally, and at this point, I don’t want to get involved with photobucket or any other computer site, other than for quick looks and printouts.


#20

The line “Für den Dienstgebrauch der Polizei im Bundesgebiet” (For official use by Police within West Germany) identifies the 451kr’s chart as clearly printed after about 1950. “Bundesgebiet” refers to the area of the Federal Republic of Germany (Bundesrepublik; as opposed to the Soviet zone). This term did not exist in the first half of the 20th century.

Nevertheless the contents may be much older and not necessarily correct, as witnessed by “BKJW”. As the readers of this forum know, this is the interwar name used by DWM (actually BKIW) and was dropped during the thirties. Two decades before this chart was printed.