German 9mm G-N Chamber Gauges, Pre-1946

This thread on German Chamber Gauges is getting clumsy, and difficult to use to compare your chamber gauge with the ones documented here. I have decided to reorganize this material into a more useful form.
The order will be as follows:
Manufacturer (as listed below or “Unknown”)
----Pistol (P08 or P38)

I have incorporate the drawings by John from his IAA Journal article in issue 265 fron JaN 1978

I have identified each significant style of markings by a code that identify the maker and a sequence number like ERMA-1 or HuK-3. The P08 andf P38 codes are seperate so there could be a GR-1 code for both P08 and P38 gauges so a complete identification would be P08 GR-1 or P38 GR-1. I have not considered N vs G as different styles nor the WaA. I do identify other changes like the suffix on the Drawning Number, date changes and some other marking variations as justification to add a suffix to the style code.

I look forward to seeing all your interesting 9mm gauges!

Lew


A more extensive list of German gauge markings is at:
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/unknown-german-gauge-maker-symbols/40953



GAUGES BY MANUFACTURER

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ERMA
image Erfurter Maschinen- und Werkzeugfabrik GmbH was formed in 1922 in Erfurt, Thuringia,

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

ERMA -1.
34 E 20821 - Reichsheer - Erma —BW39
image
image
Probably pre-1939.

ERMA-2
34E20821 - N - HEER 1939 - ERMA in oval logo - WaA42 —JM
image

ERMA-3
34E 20821-N - Heer 1939 -ERMA in circle logo - WaA 42 —BW15 & BW29


image
image

ERMA-4
34E 20821-N - RLM 1939 - ERMA in circle logo - no WaA — https://gunauction.com/buy/14006842
image

ERMA-5
34E 20820-G - WH -ERMA in circle logo - 40 WaA 42 —BW2
image
image

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Feinprüf
image Feinprüf-Feinmess-und Prüfgeräte GmbH, Göttingen

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

Feinprüf-1
34E20821(e) - N - WH - Feinprüf - no WaA —BW35
image
image

P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

Feinprüf-1
34E 20843(a) - N - WH - Feinprüf - WaA 419— LC4-BW43&37
image
image
image

Feinprüf-1a (Dwg # suffix is below the Dwg#)
34E28042 - G (a) - WH - Feinprüf - WaA ??? ---- BW31
image
image

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FW
image
Fritz Werner Aktiengesellschaft, Berlin W35

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

FW-1
34E20821e - N - WH-y3 fW -WaA not readable — BW4
image
image
Question: What is the significance of “Y3” or “Y4” on the FW-1a gauge below??? perhaps they stand for 1943 and 1944???

FW-1a (Y4 instead of Y3)
34E20821e - N - WH-y4 fW - WaA42 —BW1
image
image
image

FW-2
34E 20820 - G - FW logo 1939 WH - WaA42 —BW17
image
image

FW-2a (1940)
34E20821 - N - WH - 1940 - FW - WaA42 —BW9
image
image
image
image

FW-2a (1940)
34E20820 - G - WH - 1940 - FW - WaA42 —BW13 BW25-WaA located differently
image
image
image

FW-2b (1941)
34E20821 - N - WH - 1941 - FW logo - WaA42 —BW40
image
image
image

FW-2b (1941)
34E20820d - G - WH - 1941 - FW - WaA42 —BW27



FW-2d (1943)
34E 20820 - G - WH - 1943 - FW logo - WaA42 —BW16
image
image
image

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gmm
image
Eckardt & Lohkamp, Maschinen- und Werkzeuge, Berlin W 35, Lützowatr.89-90 1942 & 43

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

gmm-1
34E20820 e - G - WH 42 gmm - Wa-A 42 —BW14


image
image

gmm-1a (43)
34E20821e - N - WH 43gmm - WaA42 —BW5, PS
image
image

P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

gmm-1
34E 20842 a - G - gmm WH 44" - WaA42 -LC
image

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GR
image
Probably G.Rauchfuß" → Georg Rauchfuß

P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

GR-1
G - GR - 34E20842a - WaA42 (no WH))—BW3 & BW38 (G.)
image
image

GR-2
G - GR - 34E20842a - W.H. - WaA42 —BW26


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Hammer & Pick
image

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

H&P-1
34E20820 - II.38. G hammer & pick-WaA42BW7 -gauge corroided
image
image

H&P-2
34 E 20820 - WH41 G hammer & pick logo - WaA42 —BW12
image
image

H&P-2
34E20821 - WH 41 N pick&hammer logo - WaA42 —BW44
image

H&P-2a (1940)
34E20821 - WH - 40 - N pick&hammer logo - WaA42 —JM
image

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HHK
image
Heinrich H. Klüssendorf, Werkzeuge, Brlin, Spandau [ref 4]

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

HHK-1
34 E 20820 - WH HHK logo - 1940 - WaA42 —BW30
image
image

HHK-1a (1944)
34E20820 - G - WH HHK logo - 1944 - Wa42 —BW28



P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

HHK-1
34 E 20842 - G - WH HHK logo - 1942 - WaA42 —BW42
image
image
image

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HuK
image
Hahn und Kolb, Stuttgart

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

HuK-1
34E 20821 - N - W.L. - H.u.K.41 - WaA42 —BW18
image
image
image

P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

HuK-1
a - 34E20843 - N - W.H. - H.u.K. - WaA512 9 —BW22
image
image

HuK-1
a - 34E20842 - G - W.H. - H.u.K. - WaA 512 6 —BW21-LC (with 512 4 & 512 6)
image
image

HuK-1
a - 34E20842 - G - W.H. - H.u.K. WaA 512 16 (??) —B34 (more space between limes of markings)
image
image

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HWM
image
Hommelwerke GmbH, Mannheim-Käfertal.

P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

HWM-1
N - 34E2043a HWM nn circle logo - WH - no WaA—BW20
image
image

*HWM-2
*N - 34E20843 HWM logo WH - WaA42 —BW32
image

HWM-2a (crossed out Dwg# suffix)
G - 34E20842 (a crossed out) HWM logo - WH - WaA512 9 —BW24
image
image (on end I think)

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Polte Wheel
image

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

Polte-1
34 E 20821- N - WH - Polte logo - WaA42 —BW8
image
image

Polte-2
34 E 20820 - G - Luft P.1938 - WaA42 —https://gunauction.com/buy/14006842
image

Polte-3
34 E 20820.-.WH G P 40 - WaA42 —BW45
image
image

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R&Co
image

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

R&Co-1
SW R&C 9.27 - G —BW41
image
image
image
This gauge has no markngs except on the case head. It lacks the identity of the pistol so it is for the P08 and predates the P38.

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SLW Unknown Manufacturer
image

P38 Luger Pistol Gauges

SLW-1
34E20842 - SL logo - G 2F WH -WaA42 - corrioded —BW10
image
image

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S in Triangle
image Probably Simson & Co, Suhl based on the ad—image

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

S-1
S in triangle logo P…08 WL.- 34 E 208 21 - N bent wing eagle-no WaA —LC also no eagle 9mm Gauge cartridges Go No Go
image
image

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STG Unknown Manufacturer
image

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

STG -1
34E20820 - G - STG WH40 - corrosion —BW6
image
image

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Unknown

P08 Luger Pistol Gauges

UNK-1
34E20821 - N R.L.M. - bent wing (Luffwaffe) Eagle —BW23
image
image

UNK-2
34E20820 - G - WaA96 (WaA on base) —BW33
image
image

UNK-3
Full ctg profile. Only marking is 19.1 & 19.2. BW
image
Unknown maker. May be commercial and/or pre-1938

UNK-4
34E20820 - G - WH - 1943 - WaA42 —Sold at auction May 2020-Image incomplete
image

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Early Gauges (probably 1937 & earlier

Illustrations of gauges for the P08 from 1910. Source is book on German Small Arms Markiong by J Gortz and D L Beryans. The markings are: image which are the Crown over D and Crown over RC. The Crown D is the German proof mark pre-1919, and I recognize the Crown RC buyt can’t put my hands on my book of proof marks—help please!

EG-1
image
image

This is a set of gauges with similar headstamps which are likely WWI or earlier. The markings appear to be Crown R and Crown RC. image Again help is appreciated .

EG2
image

EG-3
Another addition from my collection. It is totally unmarked except for the base like the “WWI” gauges above. It has been suggested that the letter style could be pre-WWI. The script on the bottom appears to be “19.5”.
image

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Identification of German Government Gauge Inspectors

Known WaA Markings

image WaA 42: Polte, Magdeburg

image WaA 419 Unknown

image WaA 512: Unknown

image WaA 96: Hommel Werke, Mannheim

2 Likes

I am a little surprised that different gauges (drawings …842 and …843) were used for the P38 pistol. P08 and P38 firing the same cartridge, one would expect identical headspace dimensions. Possibly connected to the step in the P08 chamber, which the P38 did not have. Would be interesting to know the length and front diameter of the gauges.

Somebody else will have to help since I don’t own a “P08” marked German gauge!

My P38 G Gauges are 19.25mm long and 9.66mm at the casemouth

My P38 N Gauges are 19mm long and 9.66mm at the casemouth

Lew

Thank you, Lew, for the data.

I just remembered a gauge I have which must be a G Gauge since it is over 19mm but this one is 19.5mm 0.768 inch!!! From the style and the script on the head, this could be a very early gauge. I have added it to the images above!

Based on John’s measurements below this is a P08 gauge which makes sense since it was from a LONG time before the P38 appeared.

Cheers, Lew

Go-no go.

Using the English-language terms for these gauges can be confusing, as the letters on the gauges represent German words:

N = Normal (in the US, a “GO” gauge).

G = Grossformatig (possibly I have the wrong form of the word, but the “G” stems from some form of the word “Gross” which in the US is the “NO GO” gauge.

So, as you can see, it reverses the identification of the type of gauge, between English and German uses of the two letters.

Peelen, I only have the overall length of the guages I drew (not all mine) for my 1978 Article:.

All of the three P.08 “N” gauges described: 0.753" OAL
Three P.08 “G” gauges: 0.766", 0.760", 0.768"
One P.38 “N” gauge: 0.749"
Two P.38 “G” gauges: both 0.760"

I have not had time to sort out my current collection of seven gauges, as some will duplicate the ones in my article. If I can find time, I will try to measure the ones that didn’t appear in the article.

John Moss

John Moss

Thank you for the dimensions, John.
I think you are correct that letter N has to do with “normal” and G with groß (large) or größt… (largest). But alas, I have no documentation.
When I was young, my father taught me that there was always a “Gutlehre” (GO gauge) and an “Ausschusslehre” (literally waste, meaning reject, NO GO gauge). That terminology is still in use in Germany today. Therefore the Wehrmacht use of N and G --unambigously identified by the actual dimensions-- is confusing even to a German. There must have been a change in terminology. Or rather two changes, because in the book by Trotter on Gewehr 98 manufacture (1926), the words Plus- and Minus-Lehre for gauges are used.

Peelen - thanks for your reply. It was very helpful. It got me to looking again for a document I knew I had, could not find recently. I found it.

It is an official tools list (Infanteriegerät) from November 1940, printed in Berlin at the Reichsdruckerie.

Forgive any misspellings of the German words. I do not read the old German Alphabet well at all.

The nomenclature for the “G” and “N” types was:

“G” - größter Länge
“N” - kleinster Länge.

These gauges were numbers 34 E 20820 and 34 E 20821 respectively. The price of the “G” gauge was 3.80 Reichsmarks and the “N” gauge was 3.70 RM.

The P-38 Gauges were not listed in this edition.

I welcome corrections to what is probably very bad German-language spelling due to the use of the old German alphabet, which, by the way, I am sure is not referred to as simply “the old alphabet” by proper-German speakers. I apologize for my ignorance of these. To help with corrections, below are the cover and the page for the tool cartridges. The two entries I used are are the 5th and 6th from the top on the actual page of available gauges.

Edited to remove expressions of doubt over my German spelling of a word, as Peelen confirmed I had guessed correctly.

John Moss

Your reading it as “kleinster Länge” (“of smallest length” versus greatest length) is correct.
The font type of the document text is usually called Fraktur; in English it would be called Gothic.

Thank you for sharing.

Peelen - thank you! I will take out the questioning of my spelling from my entry to avoid confusing future readers. I appreciate very much your assistance with things like this.

John Moss

Does anyone have the identification and location of:
WaA 42
WaA 96
WaA512

It is interesting that most gauges are all accepted by WaA 42.

Cheers,
Lew

Lew, as per the Espeholt list #42 is Polte, Magdeburg and #96 is Hommel Werke, Mannheim.

#512 is not listed.

I am missing something, I think. You mentioned before about “posting gauges” but without out photos on the thread. Where are they “posted?”

John

I am continuing to make changes to the revised version of the Gauge list in the top post of this topic. I have deleted some of the repetitive material listing manufacturers of the gauges. Note there are a number of gauges with not even a guess of who they are. The logos for SLW image, STG image in particular. Any help with these would be appreciated.

, The biggest change is the size of the images. As I added new images, I realized that they were unreadable at the image size I was originally using so I basically doubled the size of most images.

In the revised section at the beginning of Post #1, I have added quite a few new gauge images that were not in the original material.

I am pleased with the new format and I hope it will result in some of you submitting images or at least drawings of other P08 & P38 Chamber gauges.

Cheers,
Lew

1 Like

Hi Lew,

Two gauges to show:

Paul

Hi Lew,
SLW logo i have too, but not at chamber gauge. Its big unknown in my gauges - number of part 113-371 and 113-3104.


(at foto is wrong “W” have another with good one)

Paul,
Two great gauges. Thanks!
The top one is style H&P-2 per the style IDs I have added above. the lower one is style gmm-1a but vastly better than the one from BW.

Pepant,
THE SLW logo is a real mystery. I can’t find any information on it. Perhaps another Forum member can come up with some ideas!!!

Thanks for the inputs.

Cheers,
Lew

I have gotten very little input on additional gauges on this post. I have gone on the internet and done search’s but what I have found is primarily duplicates of what is posted already. I gave been sent one item on the internet that is new and have added that as UNK-4.

To seek out more input I have written similar articles for both the IAA Journal and the ECRA Cartridge Researcher. Hopefully they will bring in additional information.

Cheers,
Lew

I would like to respond on the statements regarding the location of “acceptance-office”and the acceptance-stamps, for example WaA42, WaA412, WaA519 of WaA96.
It was mentioned in this thread, that for example the WaA42 stamp was located in Magdeburg at the Polte-Factory. In my opinion, this is not confirmed. Claus Espeholt described the acceptance-system of the Heereswaffenamt in his article. There, it is mentioned, that the set of stamps with a certain code (For Example WaA42) used by an inspectors-officer, was assigned to this person. This officer was based or allocated to an Abnahme-Office.

grafik
grafik
grafik

The WaA42-stamp for example, was used for the acceptance of a lot of different items and at a lot of different companies. The items range from gauges over measuring instruments to accessories for weapons. This means, in my opinion, that a certain stamp can´t be dedicated to a certain place, like a city in Germany, or a certain company. My understanding is, and C. Espeholt describes it in his paper about the HWA, that these Inspections-officers/teams covering a dedicated area (in a territorial meaning) or a certain special field (in a technical meaning). Their job could send them to each place in Germany or to certain companies in the assigned area of the suitable acceptance-office.
Due to the fact, that there are almost no documents/lists are available, which tell us the assignment of code to person, it is impossible to tell, to which acceptance-office the stamp belongs.
The WaA42-stamp for example, was used for the acceptance in companies in Bavaria, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Berlin, Baden Württemberg etc.
This means, we have to be very careful, to dedicate a WaA-stamp to a certain place.

1 Like