German blank 33 in a 50 rd. box


#1

Here is a 50 rd box. Any idea what for?

.]


#2

Jep,

It was made for use in the Zf Ger. 38.

Rgds
Dutch


#3

Maybe not made for them, but it also would have made more sense for linking up for the
MG 34 and MG 42 than the 15-round boxes.

John Moss


#4

Hello,

just a short note to highlight that these 50-round boxes were transported loose in the standard wood crate Patronenkasten 88 : only 29 50-round boxes were stacked in the crate which makes a total of 1450 rounds instead of the standard 1500-round when loading with the 15-round cardboard boxes (20 x 15-round boxes per sleeves, 5 sleeves per crate).

Cheers,

JFL


#5

[quote=“JFL”]Hello,

just a short note to highlight that these 50-round boxes were transported loose in the standard wood crate Patronenkasten 88 : only 29 50-round boxes were stacked in the crate which makes a total of 1450 rounds instead of the standard 1500-round when loading with the 15-round cardboard boxes (20 x 15-round boxes per sleeves, 5 sleeves per crate).

Cheers,

JFL[/quote]

are you sure?


#6

Much more interesting than the quantity is that extra label about shooting only in the
training device 38. Was this a different load than the normal platpatrone 33 for the
K98k and the various Machine guns in use at the time? If not, why did they limit its
use to the training device. I know some of the other “limiting” labels have to do with
occasional malfunctions in some weapons, but I don’t see that being a big issue with
blanks.

John Moss


#7

Hello Dutch,

Well, here is the label of 1450 rounds of PP33.

This content of 1450 rounds for the Patronenkasten 88 filled with 50-round boxes is described in the German manual D410 dated 1937 and dedicated to labels on ammunition crates :

In this 1937 manual, the 50-round boxes are only shown for the dummy cartridges. For the standard Ex. Part S*, you can see that the sheet has been updated with modification of the capacity from 1450 to 1500 and 50 to 300 (presumably in 15-round standard boxes).

For the Werkzeug Patr., the quantity remained unchanged.

It would be interesting to hear from any real specimens of boxes for both the Ex. Part. S* and the Werkzeug Patr. and confirm that both were finally packed in standard 15-round boxes.

By the way, the magazine capacity of the Zf. Ger. 38 is 70 rounds for which neither the 50-round nor the 15-round fits exactly.

My personal understanding was that the 50-round boxes were for 50-round MG belts.

Cheers,

JFL


#8

The “Nur fur ZeilGerat” indication is also obvious from the Powder type and Load. Most (Rifle and MG) Platzpatrone were loaded with Stabchen Pulver ( Punched discs) normally used in Pistol ammo…these ZG Platzpatrone are loaded with RohrenPulver (Tubular Powder) which has a totally different Burning rate and characteristic,from Pistol powder.
The design of the Gerat ( apparatus), being a direct Blowback or retarded Blowback design, requires a slower burning Powder than a straight SMG type Blowback gun…
Because of the Bottle necked cases and larger volume, a slower pressure build up is required, to prevent the Gun “running away” or “Bouncing” ( hammering itself to pieces).

Nice one…The ZG were a cheap method for giving the appearance of “Overhead Fire” during training…they could also be used as “Alarm Guns” in sensitve areas, such as Camps, Approach routes to a defended area, etc.
( they were cheap and could be operated remotely, even by tripwire.)

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#9

DocAV

I just did a quick go through of the 15, 20, 50, 300, 1450 and 1500 round labels for Platzpatronen 33 that I have or have pictures/scans of. The same type powder is shown on all the labels (including the labels in this thread) i.e. Nz.Pl.Patr.R.P.(1.5x1.5/0.75). Do you have a Platzpatronen 33 label that shows a different powder?


#10

Dear Mr. Butler,
I have made the assumption ( and probably an ass of myself as well) from my own experiences of Blank manufacture for use in both Rifles and MGs of several designs… the Use of a tubular powder in a rifle case will give a slow burn, much slower than the use of a Flake or Disc type powder.

I understand that the RP Powder designated here for PlatzP 33 is a short grain (1,5mmx1,5, with a .75 diameter hole.); this is much smaller (shorter) grain than RP used in Ball ammo ( Luftwaffe Loading). AS with all tubular powders, the smaller(shorter) the grain, the faster the Burn ( looking at such as the IMR series). But overall, Tubular Powder is always “Slower” than Flake or Punched disc Powders. ( G.Bl.P and Stabchen P.)

Could it be that the ZG38 ammo was loaded differently, ( no indication of Charge wt. is found here?, as it is on some labels?) from “normal” Platz33???

I think in “Die Patrone 7,9” ,there are examples of Platzpatrone with a non-tubular Powder shown…

But yourself and other similar collectors have larger collections of German Packets than I will ever hope to have,( here in Aussie) so the real answer is in analysing the Powder type and content over a wide variety of Loadings.( from the labels and from actual sampling of cartridges where possible.

Hope I haven’t discombobulated too many people, in any case.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#11

It is almost embarrassing showing this picture of two boxes in my collection.
Both have the same cartridge lot number.
All the components I can recognize are the same.

It is almost embarrassing showing this picture of two boxes in my collection.
Both have the same cartridge lot number.
All the components I can reconcile are the same.

@DocAV

From the word “Luftwaffe loading” I have never heard of. (I know what you mean).
It was loaded with Nitropenta powder. A development from the thirties for the SmK-H.
That was not what you can say a “Luftwaffe” cartridge.


#12

@JFL
Thanks for showing the box label.

Your question;

It would be interesting to hear from any real specimens of boxes for both the Ex. Part. S* and the Werkzeug Patr. and confirm that both were finally packed in standard 15-round boxes.

Well, I can help with the Werkzeug Patrone.


Courtesy the book;

Dutch


#13

Here is the Nz.Pl.Patr.R.P.(1.5x1.5/0.75) that is on the Platzpatronen 33 labels I have seen. The headstamps are ak St+ 3 43 (steel case) and edq S* 10 43 (brass case) by the way.



#14

Dear PB, the words “Luftwaffe Load” is an anecdotal “soldier’s talk” from the Russian Front. Due to the extreme cold during the winters there , it was preferred to use the brass cased or Galvaniziert Steel ( brass coated) cases in MG42s as the Lacquered steel cases caused Jams in the extreme cold, and the Blattchen Pulver also fired erratically at very low temperatures. The Luftwaffe used various other (Tubular Powder) Loadings in its 7,9 ammo to overcome the High altitude problems. When German Aircraft were grounded or out of action, their onboard ammo was regularly used by ground forces ( by necessity, in places such as Stalingrad,) both “because it was there” and also “because it worked better”.

Several personal soldier’s accounts of the Russian front campaigns make note of this (from books published in the 1950s to 70s… the titles now escape me.)
in a general sort of way ( "ie “Using MG ammo from a downed aircraft…etc”)

Maybe a detailed look at ammo used by the Luftwaffe specifically on the Eastern Front might give the answer to this puzzle.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#15

Brass coated? 7.9 is not my specialty but as far as I have seen there were no such cases except for some trial lots at best maybe.


#16

Think DocAV means copper plated steel. But they were also not used by the air force.


#17

Dear Dutch etc,
BY “Brass Plated” I meant the 1930s production with the multiple coded headstamps with Roman letters etc, which the Germans called “Galvaniziert” ( “Galvanised”, or Electroplated steel.) I know “Galvanised” in English means “Zinc Coated”, either by Hot dip or Electrolysis, but in German it means any Electrolytic plating process, with whatever metal, not only Zinc.

The reason I called it “Brass” is because the colour of the resultant cases is “Yellow” colloured, NOT the Red coppery colour one sees on (Russian) Copperplated/washed cases.

Note that WW I “E” cases ( Eiserne Hulse) were coppery coloured.

And getting back to the use of "brass??? cased ammo in Russia, we can simply go to German photos of the period (Agfacolour) which definitely show “brassy” coloured ammo belts hanging out of MG42s in Combat. The German Photography units made wide use of Agfacolour film in all of WW II, just that a lot of Publications tended to print in B&W, rather than the higher cost of colour in the 1950s and 60s etc. Maybe today with cheaper and more efficient Digital techniques, all the archived Films in Agfacolour can be republished in their true Glory. Grey steel lacquered cases also show up quite distinctively on Colour film as well.

Or the whole question could be just a sign that I am going Bananas in my old age…
Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#18

Thanks Dutch for the very interesting labels of dummy rounds.

I will get the book at the ECRA show in Switzerland next September.

Cheers,

JFL


#19

Pictures of the contents to go with the box


#20

PeterS

Again, thanks for showing the box and the headstamps for the cartridges it contains. Its always nice to have confirmation that the two go together!

Nice box!!