German / Israeli 105MM AP/TPFSDS-T Sabot Petals - Info Neede


#1

I just added this nice set of 105MM sabot petals to my collection thanks to some overseas collector friends. It looks to be German, possibly made by Israel or vice versa. It has unusual stenciling that I have not seen before or fully understand “AP/TPFSDS-T.” What does that mean? I have never seen a DS round marked for both tactical (AP) and for target practice (TP) simultaneously. I could not find any information on it or a photo of the complete round or projectile assembly with its dart. If anyone has any info on it I would be super grateful :-)

Jason


#2

The model designation (DM=Deutsches Modell) DM33… would normally indicate an AP combat round (last number 3). TP (Uebung) should have a number ending in 8. HE model numbers end in 1 while HEAT as well as HESH end in 2.
“Los IMI” indicates manufacture by IMI, Israel. Los is the German word for lot. 105 K stands for 105 mm Kanone (cannon).

Keep in mind, Bundeswehr did not adopt a 105 mm smoothbore gun but went from rifled 105 mm L7 in Leo 1 directly to 120 mm in Leo2. So all German 105 mm smoothbores are kind of experimental.


#3

Also the “/MOD” is unusual for German designations.

To the little I know the DM33A2 was not officially adopted by the Bundeswehr. (someone may correct me)


#4

Thank you big time, JP and Alex. I never realized the "3’ or “8” ending designation number corresponded with target practice and tactical use. AWESOME information.

The confusing part is why it was stenciled as a TP & AP. That is driving me nuts:-)

Also, I have not heard of “Bundeswehr” before. What does this mean? Makes sense it was never adopted as I could not even find a mention of this round much less a photo or specific information about its stats.

Thank you both very much.

Jason


#5

Jason, the “Bundeswehr” is the name of the German armed forces.

This is stupid now as names are not to be translated but if one would try to it should be something like “Union Force”.

The German model designations of artillery ammunition actually give the type and the generation of the ammunition.
End numbers are:
1 = HE
3 = AP
5 = smoke
6 = illum
8 = practice
0 = dummy

The numbers are issued within one caliber, means all 20mm are in one class no matter what case goes with it.
Means a 20mm DM11 is the first 20mm HE that got adopted, the DM21 is the second, the DM31 the third. This goes for all other calibers too.
The modifications of one certain model are marked by the usual addition of “A1”, “A2”, “A3” etc. In the past also a modification that comprised only of a different material was designated “B1” etc. but that got dropped some years ago and only the “A” indicator remained.
Means before there was for example a 20mm DM21A1B1 what was the modofication no1 and the change no1 in used material.


#6

I have to correct myself regarding fin stabilized projectiles for the rifled L7 105 mm gun.

The original DM13 (saboted spin stabilized!) was a copy of the British L28A1. The first fin stabilized type adopted was the DM23 (A1, A2), followed by the DM33. Like EOD I do not know whether a DM33A1 or A2 modification was actually in service.

In Germany, the inscription on training ammunition starts with Ueb or Üb, not TP. The training equivalent of the DM23/DM33 was the DM148. It was marked UEB-FSDS-T.


#7

Total “shot in the dark” here, but could the AP/TP designation on the Sabot/pedal mean that this sabot could be fitted to either of these type penetrators, and that the actual designation of the projo or round itself would be defined by the mission of the penetrator? That is, this designation is for the sabot and not the overall projo or round. Again, just thinking of theories, I have no knowledge of these!


#8

Taber, I do not think that markings ever indicated identical components of TP and life versions. This si also not intended by the NATO marking system (nor would it serve any purpose).
Besides that this knowledge would not help anybody as it would just misslead people - like us here now.
Try to imagine a simple soldier…


#9

Thank you all so much! I have learned some really great information here understanding these codes/markings. This was all new to me. Still that crazy TP/AP stencil is unusual. A buddy overseas sent me the bellow e-mail of a possible theory to the meaning of the markings but could not confirm.

Jason

"Hi Jason,

All info came from several sources on German fora/sites, so NO guarantee it’s correct

When the Germans modified their tanks from 105 to 120mm, there was a lot of around 5000 pieces DM33 APFSDS rounds left.

Just before that happened, they had asked IMI to modify the rounds to better/newer specs (they removed the ‘tungsten’ penetrator and changed it for a PELE penetrator)

Now that these ‘reworked’ rounds were useless, they remodified them again, and put the PELE penetrators into a 120mm sabot and the 105mm petals got reworked to TP rounds (to sell),

I do not know if yours is one of these, but they sure look like one of those…
Never saw a mixed TP/AP designation…"


#10

Jason, the PELE stuff was done by Rheinmetall (large caliber) and by Diehl (medium caliber down to 12.7). First time I hear IMI to be involved. (not that I know everything)
Also a TP made from whatever components should have respective markings (an painting). Let alone a particular designation.
Reworking a life APFSDS-T into a TP is probably more expensive than making a new TP.

There must be more to this.


#11

I still think, the use of DM33 markings ident this as AP, and therefore the AP = Armour Piercing, the TP is not Target practice, but Tungsten-Penetrator (in contrary to the DU-ones not marked specially) Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot - Tracer…

So the markings AP/TPFSDS-T are correct for an AP-round with a Tungsten-Rod

The Mod (Modified) marking was used, as Israel used a slightly diffferent Design and Material.
This was at least the Explanation, I got from friends in that Country

Good collecting
Forensic


#12

Thank you big time Alex and Forensic!

Forensic’s theory that the “TP” = “Tungsten Penetrator” and not “Target Practice” makes A LOT of sense to me in explaining these markings.

On a separate note, I have a few 105MM & 120MM German APFSDS projectiles that are also marked with IMI ID’s in addition to the German DM designations. I think Rheinmetall and IMI work together on a lot of projects?

Jason


#13

I just want to point out that Germany does not use DU penetrators at all.
If Forensic’s theory is correct then it must be a marking for a user outside Germany.


#14

I would say even outside the NATO.

Taking DU as a given and then indicate Tungsten as an exception still sounds odd.

After all the shown petals are likely to be from a non standard and non regular service round. Maybe something from R&D and test lots which were delivered for tenders or some competition.


#15

Wanted to thank everyone again for your help.

Jason