German M1898 Charger question


#1

Are these all Polte or is the top one Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen?

The below I assume to be Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen?


Joe


#2

That is correct.

The one on top in the first picture is P25.

Rgds
Dutch


#3

[quote=“dutch”]That is correct.

The one on top in the first picture is P25.

Rgds
Dutch[/quote]
Thanks Dutch, received a bunch of dupes from Phil Butler some time back and have finally decided to sort them. The P and 25 are so far apart it is hard to decipher for me. Never was much on chargers but have decided to incorporate them into my 7.92 Mauser collection. I bought most of Phil’s 7.92 Mauser collection after he passed and have been trying to incorporate it into my existing collection. Do you know the correct way to spell Treuenbrietzen or is it Treuenbritzen?

Thanks,

Joe


#4

The correct spelling of Treuenbritzen is how I just typed it. Full name: Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk Sebaldushof.

Dutch: Why do you think, or what is the documentation for, that first charger,
P 25, with the two entries widely separated, is the “P25” code. I would think that it is Polte from 1925.


#5

Joe

Although there is often some variation in the layout of the makers marks on their early M.98 chargers, I agree with John that this is more likely to be by Polte than Treuenbritzen.

For further evidence you could try examining it closely with a lens to see if it has any small manufacturing characteristics (machine marks on the sidewalls, details of lug stamping, etc) in common with other Polte or Treuenbritzen chargers.

JJE


#6

[quote=“JohnMoss”]The correct spelling of Treuenbritzen is how I just typed it. Full name: Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk Sebaldushof.

Dutch: Why do you think, or what is the documentation for, that first charger,
P 25, with the two entries widely separated, is the “P25” code. I would think that it is Polte from 1925.[/quote]

John, thanks. I only ask as if I Google it comes up as “Treuenbrietzen” with the “ie” instead of just “i”.

Joe Adashunas


#7

[quote=“JJE”]Joe

Although there is often some variation in the layout of the makers marks on their early M.98 chargers, I agree with John that this is more likely to be by Polte than Treuenbritzen.

For further evidence you could try examining it closely with a lens to see if it has any small manufacturing characteristics (machine marks on the sidewalls, details of lug stamping, etc) in common with other Polte or Treuenbritzen chargers.

JJE[/quote]

Thats why I am asking for information as when I compare them the P 25 37 steel and the P 25 brass compare favorable. The 37 P steel and P (sideways) brass compare favorably.


#8

The correct spelling is Treuenbrietzen (Pawlas’ Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen has it wrong.)

The Sebaldushof factory (Pö, P25, hla) was located north of the town, in a wood near the road to Berlin.
Later, Selterhof (P163, hlb) was erected south of the town, near the road and railway line to Jüterbog.
Roederhof (P198, eey) was actually about 30km from Treuenbrietzen, west of Belzig.

Hof means that there originally was a farm (Bauernhof) on the site.


#9

Boy, that’s amazing. That changes even the pronunciation of the name! Pawlas “Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen” is basically a photocopy of a group of WWII documents as originally typed by the Government clerks making up the lists, which I understand were made up in very few copies, and never printed in bulk. So, it is an “original” misspelling.

Well, I have once again to apologize for my ignorance. I had never noticed seeing the name “Treuenbrietzen” with that third “e” in the word.


#10

[quote=“JPeelen”]The correct spelling is Treuenbrietzen (Pawlas’ Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen has it wrong.)

The Sebaldushof factory (Pö, P25, hla) was located north of the town, in a wood near the road to Berlin.
Later, Selterhof (P163, hlb) was erected south of the town, near the road and railway line to Jüterbog.
Roederhof (P198, eey) was actually about 30km from Treuenbrietzen, west of Belzig.

Hof means that there originally was a farm (Bauernhof) on the site.[/quote]

The Sebaldushof factory (Pö, P25, hla) that was located north of the town, in a woods near the road to Berlin as you say seems to be completely gone. Do you know the closest cross roads, as I am trying to look at it on satellite map. That sort of thing is very interesting to me. The Selterhof (P163, hlb) factory you say was erected south of the town, near the road and railway line to Jüterbog. Do you know what are the closest modern cross roads or buildings. Sometimes you can make out foundations and such as I am sure there is no buildings left. Thats what I look for.

Also thanks for the information on Hof meaning that there originally was a farm (Bauernhof) on the site. I have often pondered about that.

Excellent information!

Joe


#11

[quote=“JohnMoss”]The correct spelling of Treuenbritzen is how I just typed it. Full name: Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen G.m.b.H., Werk Sebaldushof.

Dutch: Why do you think, or what is the documentation for, that first charger,
P 25, with the two entries widely separated, is the “P25” code. I would think that it is Polte from 1925.[/quote]

John,

Why do you think the clip with the year is a Polte clip.

Polte was the only ammo factory who was allowed to make 7,9 Mauser rounds.
The clips had no manufacturing dates. P25 was a secret code, just as the head stamp on the cartridges. It had to look they were made by Polte.

Years later came the character code, (g = 1935) behind the manufacturing code. Later the open year.

Rgds
Mauser


#12

Dutch - is that conjecture? You say “they had to keep it a secret” yet “P25” in its normal form appears on cartridge headstamps very early, as I recall. When I had my collection, my earliest lot for P25 was lot 10 of 1926. If they had to make clip markings for P25 look like Polte to keep the code a secret, why did they not have to make the headstamps, in the same time period, look like Polte? The code is to keep the factory secret; would it really be necessary to keep the use of the code secret? If so, why not just leave them plain - no clip markings and not headstamp on P25 items, or use some other meaningless symbol to designate the factory? Makes no sense to me.

I think a more direct question than why I think it is Polte (Because it looks like Polte to me) is why do you think it is not Polte? I don’t say I am right - I just ask for the documentation for the opinion that despite the separation between “P” and date - the normal way they did Polte clips - that in this case it is not Polte but rather P25.

I am just trying to understand that crazy era. It surprised me enough to find out that the German military personnel could not even spell all the town names correctly in a top secret document!


#13

A lot of valid points are being raised. Most of what has been stated is what I have already run through my head over time. John asking for documentation rather than conjecture is what I was hoping for but opinions are interesting as they add to theory. At this point I am sticking it back in the Polte drawer. Unfortunately Phil did not supply any information with the cigar box full that I received. I have talked with Haak in person on the box full he got and there were no exotics or any information he received. So where the Aluminum one or the S.m.K.H. and other exotics that he had went ??? . That is what I was hopping to really find when going through this box to add to my existing collection. Oh well, maybe some definitive prof will turn up one day. Phil bought a 150 piece collection from Fuller about 5 years ago but most of that is also missing. The last time I was over Phil’s house after he passed talking with his son, we looked for written information but the records he had were on a unbacked up hard drive that went bad. Phil’s son tells me that Haak and myself received all the chargers and no information. I think I will email Steve and ask him if he has any info on the P 25 charger. This is now become a quest for definitive proof.


#14

According to Google Maps the former entrance of Sebaldushof is at 52.117772 and 12.888483. The bridge over the Nieplitz creek is all that is left, apart from a small monument for Soviet soldiers killed when reaching the factory.
The midpoint location of Selterhof is about 52.065565 12.890178, approx. 1 km before you reach Frohnsdorf. Note the buildings south of the road are a former Soviet barracks. The factory was north of the road which leads to the west.

I know the locations from Allied aerial photographs. An interesting observation is the total destruction of the Treuenbrietzen railway station and the area around it while no bomb crater in the factories is visible.


#15

If a clip should turn up marked P 24 in parallel to the P 25 specimen it would suggest that the clip was indeed produced by Polte, as the numeric code system only went into effect in 1925, I believe. Jack


#16

[quote=“JPeelen”]According to Google Maps the former entrance of Sebaldushof is at 52.117772 and 12.888483. The bridge over the Nieplitz creek is all that is left, apart from a small monument for Soviet soldiers killed when reaching the factory.
The midpoint location of Selterhof is about 52.065565 12.890178, approx. 1 km before you reach Frohnsdorf. Note the buildings south of the road are a former Soviet barracks. The factory was north of the road which leads to the west.

I know the locations from Allied aerial photographs. An interesting observation is the total destruction of the Treuenbrietzen railway station and the area around it while no bomb crater in the factories is visible.[/quote]

Sebaldushof is where I was looking the other day but I missed the old roadway before the creek. It almost looks like some remaining long assembly buildings and foundations are left close to the farm. I bet those folks get request to search for artifacts all the time.

Selterhof I would have never figured out as it is like you say all but gone. Are those buildings SE of 52.065565 12.890178 or solar panels.

Is there any way I could get an email of the photos you refer to. If not I understand.

Looking at these locations sometimes gives me a chill thinking of the people that tolled and slaved making what we collect today to remember.

Thanks so much for the information thus far.

Joe


#17

[quote=“xjda68”][quote=“JPeelen”]According to Google Maps the former entrance of Sebaldushof is at 52.117772 and 12.888483. The bridge over the Nieplitz creek is all that is left, apart from a small monument for Soviet soldiers killed when reaching the factory.
The midpoint location of Selterhof is about 52.065565 12.890178, approx. 1 km before you reach Frohnsdorf. Note the buildings south of the road are a former Soviet barracks. The factory was north of the road which leads to the west.

I know the locations from Allied aerial photographs. An interesting observation is the total destruction of the Treuenbrietzen railway station and the area around it while no bomb crater in the factories is visible.[/quote]

Sebaldushof is where I was looking the other day but I missed the old roadway before the creek. It almost looks like some remaining long assembly buildings and foundations are left close to the farm. I bet those folks get request to search for artifacts all the time.

Selterhof I would have never figured out as it is like you say all but gone. Are those buildings SE of 52.065565 12.890178 or solar panels.

Is there any way I could get an email of the photos you refer to. If not I understand.

Looking at these locations sometimes gives me a chill thinking of the people that tolled and slaved making what we collect today to remember.

Thanks so much for the information thus far.

Joe[/quote]
If you use Bing maps it brings up a totally different picture of buildings not solar panels.


#18

Yes Jack, After 1918 they first used old WW1 clips.

Because Polte did not stamped a manufacturing date on there clips we don’t know when the production started. With one exception, polte was the only clip manufacturer until 1929.
The exception was a clip with the marking 274 A 22. The company who made these clips in 1922 is still unknown.

In 1929 a new, until now unknown company with a triangle as a factory mark is seen.
Clips with this triangle are known until the year 1934. The rest of the history is known.

BTW I opened a few P25 boxes from 1935 and 1936. (P25 20.L.35 and P25 12.L. 36)
Both had P25 clips as showed in the picture.

The clips without date must be made before 37 because the existence of a P25 clip with a 1937 marking is known. ( P 25 37 )


#19

The clips without date must be made before 37 because the existence of a P25 clip with a 1937 marking is known. ( P 25 37 )

Yes, notice the Picture of the P 25 37 charger in my initial post.

Also I have the 274 A 22. The company who made these chargers in 1922 is still unknown to myself also.

The unknown company with a triangle as a factory mark, I have only brass chargers from 1929 until the year 1934.

I am now staring to lean toward Treuenbrietzen once again as I also stated earlier that when I compare them the P 25 37 steel and the P 25 brass compare favorable.


#20

Here are my brass chargers for the M-98:

I guess these are the most common ones