German WWII Vintage Green Base 9mm P08 proof Loads


#1

As some of you know, my collection is not “totally” organized, and I am “a little” behind in entering some acquisitions in my database.

Yesterday I was looking through a collection I had bought over a decade ago, and been through a number of times. I decided to check it to see if there was a dnh headstamped Helmet Test load that had a different lot number from the one in my collection. I found it and it did have a lot number I needed. In the process I found a group of seven green base proof loads which I had previously overlooked. Three of these proofs were ones I knew I didn’t have and had never documented. A nice surprise! I decided to share them with the Forum members.

In addition to these I have the following green base proof loads in the collection:
dnh St 1 41
dnh St+ 7 44 GM color mE blt
hla St 4 41
oxo St 8 42 black mE blt
P * 43 36; 24 39
P St 6 39
dnf St 1 41
asb St 17 41; 25 41
asb St+ 11 42; 13 44
asb St+ 32 43 black mE blt
rfo St+ 49 44; 3 45

Some of the 1943 and later rounds with no indication of bullet type could be GM colored mE loads that I didn’t weigh.

If you have other 9mm P08 green base proof rounds, please add them to this thread!

Cheers,
Lew

PS: Proofs added after John Ms post below. I have not duplicated rounds John listed.
ch St+ 4, 5 & 6 43
F N 41 (I photographed this round with a green base in a collection in Belgium in 1983. The collection was sold quite some time ago and I have no idea where this round is today. if anyone on the Forum knows, please get in touch with me)
kam St+ 7 43 (documented in a German collection in 1975. The collection was sold in Germany in the early 1980s. Current location unknown)
ak St+ 6 44


German WWII Red Base Small Arms Ammunition
#2

Lew - here are the German WW@ era Beschuß patronen that I have in my own collection
that do not seem to appear on your list or in your picture:

ak St+ 9 44
ch St+ 8 43
ch St+ 5 44
ch St+ 11 44
oxo St 4 42 (Black Bullet)

I also have a red base round supposedly being an MP 40 “Laufbeschuß Patrone.” Headstamp is kam St+ 1 43 (black mE bullet). I think you have one too. Frankly, I am inclined to think this is a fake. The only thing that holds me back is the the base color, an orange-red color, is absolutely identical to that of a 9 x 25 mm Mauser round I have with Hungarian headstamp, steel case, that I know is legitimate, because I know the source, which had a huge connection to the accumulation of captured Axis ordnance, and zero connection to cartridge collecting.

Don’t know if the above is much help or not.

John Moss


German WWII Red Base Small Arms Ammunition
#3

Thanks John, Good addition.

You reminded me, I didn’t check either my Czech, Belgian or Polish rounds for proofs.

Information on red base rounds has been moved to
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/german-wwii-red-base-small-arms-ammunition/29235

Cheers,
Lew


German WWII Red Base Small Arms Ammunition
#4

Wow, I haven’t seen those h/s labels on rounds for many a year!


#5

I still have questions in my mind about the absolute match of colors to a Hungarian proof load in my collection, that once again, came from an almost indisputable source; indisputable in the sense that the man had no connection to anything to do with cartridge collecting as we know it, but as an ex-ordnance high-ranking officer, left behind at death a house full of ordnance stuff, including an attic full of light machine guns. My P 40 black plastic dummy came from what was left, as did the red base 9 x 15 proof taped together with a normal Hungarian ball round. I also acquired four or five German Wall charts from the estate.

That said, in 9 mm Para, in 55 years of collecting including two European shows, I have never seen any other red-base German 9 x 19 rounds except two of the Kam -headstamp that both Lew and I got from the same source years ago.

You would think that if repair shops (of which I am only slightly familiar, since I visited several times the weapons repair facility (Army) at Ladd AFB, Alaska, since I was their Personnel Specialist in Yukon Comd. Hq.) did any actual proof testing, likely people would have had more access to them than to the small arms factories proofing weapons they made (or the proof house serving those factories). I would expect to see more red-base ones than the green base ones. Further, they would have had to have had documents establishing the specifications for the actual proof testing as well as specifying the correct loads and loading
procedures. The only red base one I have, is the “kam” round, and the cartridge itself looks absolutely factory made. It does not have the appearance, to me as a very careful
handloader, of a “locally” assembled cartridge. In the absence of documentation (and I hope there IS some and that someone has access to it to share with us) the whole scenario of local assembly of proof cartridges in individual field shops is, to me, anecdotal.

Just the way I look at it. Some stories about other strange and exotic 9 mm rounds from the source of the “kam” rounds also made me dubious, but I certainly cannot rule out anything, because I don’t have any documentation to prove that the rounds are NOT legitimate. One of the quandaries of trying to do scholarly studies of war materiel items now 73 or more
years old, especially from a country where the “war machine” was almost totally destroyed.

Age, by the way,has not too much to do with something being legitmate of fakes. There were fake cartridges being made to deceive when I first started collecting a half-century ago. In fact, many of them we saw here were produced in California by a single “collector.” One of the first collectors I met when I started was Sal Guarini, one of the Early Presidents of what is now the IAA, and when I first saw his collection, he showed me a drawer full of fakes - many of which had been disassembled revealing big problems with the expertly, but home-made projectiles. It was an early education for me that I have not forgotten.

For the record, lest I be misunderstood, I am not myself convinced at all that the red base
rounds, at least the “kam” ones, are fakes. I go back to their identical color-tone and application as on an absolutely genuine Hungarian proof load. I am simply showing my skeptical side, brought on by the number of rounds I have purchased or traded for over the years that later were found to be absolutely fakes - not replicas, not someone fooling around, but absolutely made to deceive for monetary profit or to obtain trains of good
original cartridges.

John Moss.


#6

JohnMoss

Lew
10h
I still have questions in my mind about the absolute match of colors to a Hungarian proof load in my collection, that once again, came from an almost indisputable source; indisputable in the sense that the man had no connection to anything to do with cartridge collecting as we know it, but as an ex-ordnance high-ranking officer, left behind at death a house full of ordnance stuff, including an attic full of light machine guns. My P 40 black plastic dummy came from what was left, as did the red base 9 x 15 proof taped together with a normal Hungarian ball round. I also acquired four or five German Wall charts from the estate.

That said, in 9 mm Para, in 55 years of collecting including two European shows, I have never seen any other red-base German 9 x 19 rounds except two of the Kam -headstamp that both Lew and I got from the same source years ago.

You would think that if repair shops (of which I am only slightly familiar, since I visited several times the weapons repair facility (Army) at Ladd AFB, Alaska, since I was their Personnel Specialist in Yukon Comd. Hq.) did any actual proof testing, likely people would have had more access to them than to the small arms factories proofing weapons they made (or the proof house serving those factories). I would expect to see more red-base ones than the green base ones. Further, they would have had to have had documents establishing the specifications for the actual proof testing as well as specifying the correct loads and loading
procedures. The only red base one I have, is the “kam” round, and the cartridge itself looks absolutely factory made. It does not have the appearance, to me as a very careful
handloader, of a “locally” assembled cartridge. In the absence of documentation (and I hope there IS some and that someone has access to it to share with us) the whole scenario of local assembly of proof cartridges in individual field shops is, to me, anecdotal.

Just the way I look at it. Some stories about other strange and exotic 9 mm rounds from the source of the “kam” rounds also made me dubious, but I certainly cannot rule out anything, because I don’t have any documentation to prove that the rounds are NOT legitimate. One of the quandaries of trying to do scholarly studies of war materiel items now 73 or more
years old, especially from a country where the “war machine” was almost totally destroyed.

Age, by the way,has not too much to do with something being legitmate of fakes. There were fake cartridges being made to deceive when I first started collecting a half-century ago. In fact, many of them we saw here were produced in California by a single “collector.” One of the first collectors I met when I started was Sal Guarini, one of the Early Presidents of what is now the IAA, and when I first saw his collection, he showed me a drawer full of fakes - many of which had been disassembled revealing big problems with the expertly, but home-made projectiles. It was an early education for me that I have not forgotten.

For the record, lest I be misunderstood, I am not myself convinced at all that the red base
rounds, at least the “kam” ones, are fakes. I go back to their identical color-tone and application as on an absolutely genuine Hungarian proof load. I am simply showing my skeptical side, brought on by the number of rounds I have purchased or traded for over the years that later were found to be absolutely fakes - not replicas, not someone fooling around, but absolutely made to deceive for monetary profit or to obtain trains of good
original cartridges.

John Moss.


#7

Lew, if you could change two words in your very first line to make it read little organized…. and totally behind,
I would fully agree. Ho ho ho.
I have a Problem. You started with proof rounds (green base) and now ii’s the never ending story about the possibility of fakes with red hs.
Please, back to the proof rounds. And do not forget the rounds of WWI.
Rolf


#8

Rolf,
You haven’t been here for a few years so your observations are somewhat behind. You remember when you could see 80% of the floor but only 10% of the table and desk tops. Now you can only see 15% of the floor and I have no proof the tables and desk actually still have tops since I haven’t seen them in more than a year!

I agree with you on the discussion of red base rounds which is why I moved the posts on the Red base rounds to another thread and am trying to keep this one to only green base proofs!

I do happen to know that you have quite a few green based proofs that are not listed above. “Your mission if you chose to accept it is…” I think those are the words from Mission Impossible before the tape machine burns up. For you under 60, you will likely have to go on Google and find out what Mission Impossible is…

WWI proof rounds are a different story, and we handle that desperately since most are unmarked, like the PJJ 45 Danish 9x19 Proof.

All,
Still looking for more green base proof rounds. When we get a much more complete list, I will consolidate it and publish it here.

Cheers,
Lew


#9

Lew,
I add two green based proofs.dnh%203%2044%20Patrone%20Beschu%C3%9F
P%2014%20A%20gr%C3%BCn
and a box WW I Laufbeschuß

Norbert
I am always looking for pictures from labels 7.92x33 Kurzpatrone 43 for my book.


#10

Hi Lew

In my collection are the following proof cartridges:

BESCHUSS 1917 191,5 grs.

asb * 7 41 08-bullet 185,3 grs.

P St 6 39 08-bullet, cws case 187,0 grs.

dnf St 1 41 08-bullet 185,3 grs.
asb St 25 41 08-bullet 175,9 grs.
asb St+ 11 42 08-bullet 181,6 grs.

ch St+ 8 43 08-bullet 180,1 grs.

dnh St+ 7 44 08-bullet (m.E.) 160,8 grs.
rfo St+ 49 44 08-bullet (m.E.) 158,3 grs.

asb St+ 27 43 08-black bullet (m.E.) 160,6 grs.
dnh St+ 3 44 08-black bullet (m.E.) 159,6 hrs.

yours Joe


#11

Some more proof loads for the list

P 24 08, nickel plated
P14A * 7 40 08, nickel plated
ad St+ 16 42 m.E., black
ak * 8 41 08, nickel plated
ak St+ 6 44 08
asb IXb1 13 40 08
asb St 25 41 08
asb St 25 41 m.E., black
asb St+ 16 43 m.E., black
asb St+ 28 43 m.E., black
cdp * 3 41 08
ch St+ 3 43 08
ch St+ 11 44 m.E., To
dnf St+ 3 44 m.E., To
dnf - St+ 16 44 SE
dou. St+ 10 44 m.E., To
dou. - St+ 35 44 m.E., To
faa St+15 43 SE
hla St+ 8 44 SE
oxo St 6 43 m.E., black
rfo St+ 41 44 m.E., To
va St+16 41 08
va St+ 7 44 m.E.,To

…and some boxes

Empty, but reported with asb St+ 14 44. Steelcase, bullet m.E. To


#12

Rolf,

Lovely pictures of those Bechuß boxes! Thanks for posting. On that first “08mE Beschuss” stamped label, it is quite possible that the reported round is as you mentioned. I have the same box with one original round in it, and it is asb St+ 13 44. Those case lots 13 and 14 may have even been mixed in a single box. At any rate, they are to close to be coincidental. Oddly, it is the only Beschuß box I have with the original ammo in it. My other two were overlabeled, and I took the top label off and simply put in inside the box, to show the far more interesting Beschuß labels.

John


#13

Rolf,

You win the prize for the most proof rounds! The prize is a totally unknown green base round that you don’t have. It is yours as soon as the paint dries!!!

Seriously, thanks for the great input. Some of these I knew about from Eric, but you have done good!!!

Cheers,
Lew


#14

Always fun and pleasure to help. Proof rounds WWI, will they be next?
I know you like the colored 9ers, so here’s one, before I go to bed.kam
Rolf


#15

Sleep soundly!!!

In the mean time I copied this to the thread on red base P08.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/german-wwii-red-base-small-arms-ammunition/29235/2

Cheers,
Lew