Any chance these are Gevelot 7.65 shown in IAA Journal Centerfire Pistol Guide as VRS?
They look like common 7.65 Browning / .32 ACP. to me.
Agree. So what is the Gevelot 7.65 still yet to find?
these have nothing to do the the 7.65 Gevelot cartridge - here Gevelot is simply the brand for these very common 7.65 x 17 mm Browning (.32 Auto) cartridges.
The 7.65 mm Gevelot is a bottle-necked case, with the following measurements:
Head (Rim): 10 mm (0.394")
Base: 9.94 mm (0.3915")
Case Diameter just below shoulder: 9.64 mm (0.380")
Neck Diameter: 8.29 mm (0.3265")
Inside Mouth Diameter: 7.53 mm (0.2965")
Bullet Diameter at base: 7.84 mm (0.3085")
Overall Case Length: 18.58 mm (0.7315")
Overall Bullet Length: 11,58 mm (0.4565")
Case Material: Brass
Bullet Material: Undetermined. Grey color. Could be Cupro-nickel or zinc coated.
Core Material: Lead - composition unknown
Bullet Weight: 70 +/- grains (4.54 grams)
Primer Cup Material: Copper - composition unknown
Primer type: Berdan. Case has two flash holes.
Headstamp: * S.F.M * GG
These were found in the basement of Soçiete Francaise des Munitions, Issey-Molineux, when they were selling out left over/obsolete items. As far as I know, they were all cases and bullets separate, but I have no documentation of that. It is simply what I was told. That is what my specimen is. I know nothing about the gun it was for.
Now, a caveat. If I have just described a separate cartridge from that which you are thinking about, it is my fault. I know this cartridge as the “7.65 mm Beaux,” as in Leon Beaux of Italy, a company with strong French ties. I am going by the book “Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges, Volume III”, by Brandt & Müller, when it comes to the name. They show the following on Page 49, Item 77A:
7.65 mm S.F.M. Beaux
7.65 mm Gevelot
7.65 x 18.0 mm
7.65 x 18.5 mm.
It appears on S.F.M. drawings 10548 and 10548b, with the final form registered on drawing 10137, dated 18 August 1906.
The photo in the referenced book, by the way, shows the cartridge assembled, bullet in case.
Hope this is of some assistance.
Thank you John for the info. I have a couple of 7.65 mm Beaux, but now know to keep an eye out for the Gevelot.
I think I didn’t explain things well. The 7.65 mm Beaux cartridge is also called the 7.65 Gevelot. They are, to the best of my knowledge and of that of the three German collectors involved with the various volumes of the book I cited, Hans Erlmeier, Jacob Brandt and Alfons Müller. If you have the 7.65 mm Beaux, then you have the 7.65 mm Gevelot. The Beaux cartridge was made under the brand of S.F.M., but of course, they were just a successor to the original firm of Gevelot & Gaupillat, hence the back-to-back monogram version of “GG” on S.F.M headstamps. The Gevelot name was often used even after it became S.F.M.
You are fortunate to to have a couple of the 7.65 mm Beaux. It is a very rare cartridge. Are your specimens loaded?
John, the 7,65 Gevelot and the 7,65 SFM-Beaux are different…
I show my 2 samples of this cases from the basement of the old SFM-Factory :-)
The left one is the socalled 7,65 Gevelot, the right one the 7,65 SFM-BEAUX. I do have the drawings somewhere…
The caselenght differs slightly
7,65 Gevelot left is 17,85-18,00mm-7,65 SFM-Beaux right is 18,25-18,35mm
Peter - the drawings would be very important. As it stands, without the documentation of two different case lengths, the longer cartridge case in the picture could simply be a draw-set piece prior to the final trim after forming the shoulder and neck. The stuff in SFM’s basement was full of unfinished cases and draw sets, as I am sure you know. I have a draw set for the 7.63 Mauser made by SFM, originally believed to be Ethiopian and now surely identified as Turkish, that came from there, as well as a couple of other unfinished cases of other calibers.
Because in the picture, the two cartridge heads (rims) are not aligned, the left one being higher than that on the right, it is difficult to judge the position of the shoulder of the cases in relation to each other. That might tell still another story, if they are different.
Of course, the existence of drawings for the different lengths, giving different cartridge designations, would be definitive, and prove Brandt wrong in his Volume III. I full admit there are many errors in that series of books, and the despite being informed of them, with documentation in many instances, they were not corrected or added in Volume III. Still, for most of us, it is the best source available on these odd pistol rounds.
I hope you will pursue finding the drawings. I would love to have a copy of them.
As you probably noted, my primed case (the primer indicating it was like a finished case), is 18.58 mm in length, measured from my specimen with a high quality digital caliper that converts instantly from inch to metric measurement (and fractional as well) with the press of a button. That is different enough from the maximum case length you mentioned for the longer of the two types to NOT be simply “within specifications.” Is there an explanation for that?
I appreciate very much your comments as this is an interesting little cartridge with apparently very little accurate information about it (or in the case of two or more variants, “them”) and it would be great if more documentation could be added to this thread. Perhaps we could approach the true history of these cartridges!
Best regards, my friend.
Well John I stand corrected. When I pulled out my Beaux 7.65 this morning, I find they are standard 7.65 with headstamps BEAUX and L.BEAUX & C.
Thank you again for educating me on this cartridge
pastammo - no problem. We are all on the Forum to learn. That includes me. It appears not that the 7.65 Beaux (as opposed to 7.65 Browning simply made by Beaux) and the 7.65 Gevelot may actually be separate cartridges with both existing. See the comments by Forensic, who is quite expert on these things, that precedes my last entry.
Fantastic board! What especially interests me is that this confirms that the bullet that came with my primed case is correct. Since it weighs 70 grains +/- I had concerns that it was just a .32 auto bullet. No matter if that is what in essence it actually is - the board proves it is correct with the 7.65 Beaux cartridge.
Also interesting are the three cases at the end. I will have to try to get those captions translated from French to English. It shows three different lengths of neck, which again brings back the question of there being two different case types, 7.65 Beaux and 7.65 Gevelot, or if one of these is not simply a different case drawing piece. Since the middle one is the shortest, if it is in sequence, it might explain the reason my primed case is longer than the measurements given in the entry by Forensic. Of course, it might not have anything to do with it either.
At any rate, I great board. I envy you! :-) Thank you very much for posting that picture. It is a very important piece of the story of the 7.65 Beaux cartridge.
Edited only to correct a spelling due to a typo error.
Are there no drawings in the stock of SFM factory drawings?
EOD - drawings for both the 7.65 Beaux and the 7.65 Gevelot, as two separate cartridges, were mentioned in this thread, but it would be necessary to see them to confirm that there actually was two different cartridges. The wonderful board that Kriss posted is confirmation of the designation 7.65 mm Beaux for one of them, anyway. We need confirmation for a “7.65 Gevelot” cartridge.
I found that I have the factory drawing, Number 10.137, dated July 25, 1906, for the caliber 7.65 Beaux. It shows a case-length measurement of 17.70 to 18 mm. My own specimen, which is a primed empty case, measures 18.58 in length, longer than either of the two cartridge cases Forensic pictured. Now I am not even sure what I have. Other than case length, my case and bullet are the same as what Forensic showed. I can’t imagine the factory priming the cartridge case before they are totally formed, as in the instance of a defective case, and that happened likely much more in 1906 than today, with better machinery, a primer would be wasted.
Informational discoveries seem to darken the facts of these cartridges, rather than enlighten us.
I will try to post a picture of the drawing here. The drawing number is missing, as to make it fit my scanners format, I had to crop my xerox copy of the drawing somewhat, and lost the Drawing number, shown above, in the process.
From left to right, my rough translation is
1 Piercing and cutting
2 Set to length
If those rough translations are correct, perhaps the samples are only for show and not necessarily technical correct, except for maybe the centre one.
John K. - thank you. That makes sense. I am happy to see that the last operation in making the cases seems to have been priming them, which is what I would expect. It tells me that my case was likely a finished product, although possibly a reject, since the copper primer is typical of SFM at the time. Of course, it does not explain why my case has such a long neck, even though it appears to be finish-trimmed at the case mouth. While I recognize that comparisons of a case to a picture not in scale is difficult, proportionately the cartridge case at the far right, which is captioned “Priming,” looks identical to mine; that is the neck is long and appears the same length in proportionate to the rest of the case below it as my primed case. It may be as John K. implies, that these cases were affixed to the board out of order, as the final three don’t seem to be the correct order for their captions.
Edited to include discussion of neck lengths.
Thanks for the translation. All of this helps if we are ever to figure out the whole story of this cartridge and what may be other renditions of it.
Another look at the board leads me to think the last two operations may be out of order.
This would mean priming, then cutting to length, which may make sense of the picture. Maybe your case is the second last stage, prior to trimming to length.
Yes, the last cartridge in the row, cannot be from the priming process, as usual the shortening of a case to final lenght is BEFORE the priming …
To turn a primed case to a shorter length would not be wise, as in this process the set primer can be wrong handled and goes off…
At least today, in all factories here, the priming and loading is the last step in row…
Secondly, the Board is NOT an official SFM Board: its a made up with components…
I will check my notes on this cases, which I got some 35 years (or more?) ago at Paris…
As everything here is packed ( as I only stay half of the year in this part of Europe) I cannot dig out the cases for a new photo…
As soon thats possible, I will make more pics…
But the neck is definitiv longer as in the left pic…
Thanks Peter, glad I’m not losing it completely