Gevelot 7.65

Peter - even if the board is not actually a product of SFM, it is extremely interesting. Perhaps the owner of the board could look at closely and tell us if that final cartridge case on the board is primed or not. If not, maybe the one to the left of it is actually primed. It would help answer questions if he could do that.

My case is primed, as I have mentioned before, and yet is the longer length as shown on that Board. And, I agree with you totally. It is hard to believe they would prime the case before the final trim. Priming is usually (always?) part of the loading process, not part of the case-making process, I believe.

If someone has a drawing from SFM showing the cartridge as the “7.65 mm Gevelot” as opposed to Drawing Number 10.137, which I posted, it would be extremely helpful.

John Moss

John

I found only the 7,65 Gevelot in Erlmayer Brandt as Nr 71A, and the 7,65 SFM-Beaux as Number 77A.
EB mentions SFM Drawings Nr.10548 and 10548b (which i do not have), maybe someone here has them and the description there may shed some light on this issue.
Attached copys out of the book:
Scannen0002 Scannen0003

Peter - thank you. A case of bad research on my part. I completely forget about the combined (one cover) edition by “Jakob H. Brandt” (totally ignoring Hans Erlmeier and Alfons Müller, both of whom had much to do with Volumes I, II, and III), I suppose because I was so disappointed in the lack of corrections of previous errors and the little bit added to it considering what had actually shown up, and of which he was advised. I only use the original red cover volumes I, II and III. So, I complete missed Item 71A in the combined volume publication. The two cartridges are so similar that it makes one wonder if there really are two, or the measurements were taken from two different draw pieces.

I note you have empty cases. That is what I have, as I have mentioned on this thread. My original information from a couple of our French collector friends was that was all that actually was found at S.F.M. Do you know of any loaded specimens actually found there? I ask because so many collectors don’t like empty cases, and assemble them themselves. The photos in the Brandt combined volume are two different pictures, for sure (in some similar items, he used the obviously-same picture for two different cartridges of the same basic measurements), but the only major difference in measurements is the case length. All the others seem to be close enough to simply represent the specs. one would expect from cartridges made in 1906.

Please folks, I am not claiming there are NOT two different rounds, the 7.65 mm Beaux and the 7.65 mm Gévelot. I am just trying to put together as much information as I can to try to sort this thing out. I find a possibility that they are what I suggest might be the case, but it is only one possibility. I guess the important factor here would be the S.F.M. Drawings Numbers 10548 and 10548b. If anyone has these two drawings, I hope they will post pictures of them here.

Any further comments and/or documentation concerning either or both of these cartridges will be greatly appreciated.

Peter - thank you. You pointed out to me that I must go thru this combined volume to see what else it holds that I may have missed regarding other cartridge types.

John Moss

John, the drawing you posted refers to drawing 10548b, saying that the dimensions are the same, only the tolerances being different and agreed by Leon Beaux.
If only 10548 and 10548b are relevant, your drawing is very probably 10548.

10548 b…

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and another one 10137…

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Well, drawing number 10548b is certainly for the Beaux cartridge, since this drawing is in the Italian language. I read enough Italian to understand most of it, but I cannot see any case-length measurement in that drawing, which for what I am after is critical. Wish we could see 10548 and 10548a, which I assume existed.

Peelen - the drawing I have is not from that series - it is number 10.137. If you meant that my cartridge is probably the one reflected on Drawing 10548, that could be. I would have to see that drawing to know. My ignorance of foreign languages caused me to overlook, thru not understanding it, the notation about the drawing 10548, that is on my drawing. Thank you for pointing it out to me, as it is, obviously, an important notation. I can handle a little Spanish and Italian, and a trifle bit of German, but French is a total mystery to me.

Kriss - the drawing you show is the same as mine, I believe, except for lacking the “Avec la permission du Gévelot-Paris.”

The Italian-language drawing did put one thought into my mind, and that is that perhaps the overall case length I measured from my 7.65 Gevelot-Beaux cartridge is not what would be measured from a loaded cartridge. Mine is an empty case, and I note on the drawing that the cartridge in question used a roll crimp at the mouth, which would shorten it somewhat, and that shorter length would be reflected in the measurements derived from a loaded cartridge. Now, I will just have to use my poor math skills to add up the various measurements and see if I can come up with a case-length measurement on the Italian-language drawing.

Edited to correct a typo only.

John Moss

John, it says 18mm.

EOD - Thank you. I still don’t see any single figure of 18 mm on the drawing, but I had already added up the various elements and they do come to 18 mm. So, my case, at 18.58 mm, could be the 18 mm case, as the tiny width of the difference of 0.58 mm could be accounted for by the absence of the roll crimp on the NPE case in my collection. Unfortunately, it is such a tiny measurement that it also could be the 18.30 mm case of the Brandt measurement of Item 77A in the combined-volumes issue of his book.

It kind of brings us back to square one, unfortunately!

John Moss

Hi John - I’ve isolated the sectioned view in the drawing, which shows (on the left) the OAL case length of 17.70 - 18.00 mm, giving a tolerance of 0.30mm.

Gevelot

Thank you. However, regarding not being able to find the case length expressed as one figure, 18 mm, I was referring to the drawing written in the Italian language posted by Kriss.I like the enlargement you made of just the cutaway case, though, and will add it to my files.

John M.

John, not in one figure but here it is:

EOD - thank you, but those are the figures I already used to come up with 18 mm, as mentioned by me previously. Again, though, I like that cropped image and will print it out for my file on the Beaux cartridge.

John

John, I digged out from my SFM stuff the following cases, which I still have…

Only one matches the final lenght (slightly less than 18mm)
All have the shoulder at the same Level, only the caselenght varies…
The lenght of each case is given in the box on the PRIMED cases, as I got them primed originally…
.
I got them many many years back directly from SFM, as i bought a lot of rifles from SFM-Stock sold trough the Hotel Drouot (an auctionhouse which sells also government stocks and art and a lot of other things)…

Peter - That is the best information yet! What a collection! I was happy that I have one specimen of primed case plus an original projectile.

Thanks for sending that. It is apparent that they were trying various neck lengths purposefully. It is interesting that none of them are actually the 18 mm case length that they describe in most of the drawings, although the one that is 17.90 mm is close. Could we get a copy of the box label that shows the various lengths?

Vielen Dank!

John

John,

the one with 17,90mmm is well in the specs for the final version, as the drawing from Mayhem above gives a variationwide of 17,7 to 18mm, but not longer…
As it is a bottleneck case, it chambers on the shoulder and the lenght is not so important, as long, it is not longer as the chamber…shorter caselenght is due to the same position of the shoulder not a problem…

But still, against todays specs, a casedifference of 0,3mm is huge…

I do not have any box :-)), I kept only the cases above, as they where all different…
But still, it does not clear the mystery about an existing 7,65 Gevelot, as the above ones are samples from the ammo for the order of Leon Beaux…
The case of the 7,65 Gevelot (supposed to be) I bought 1987 on a french collectors meeting as that…For me it seems, that the socalled Gevelot has a different shoulder design (longer as the Beaux-Modell and subsequently shorter neck)…
I still keep it as that, except there comes an other explanation

Peter

More good information. The first mention I have seen of the possibility of a different shoulder. Do you have a picture of a Beaux cartridge next to your Gevelot version?

John Moss

I have like 8 of these!They were in a rolltop desk I aquired with a house I purchased

Just one question: What pistol were these developed for?

Doc AV

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Timmoney - your cartridges are the normal 7.65 x 17SR mm Browning, called .32 Auto (originally called .32 A.C.P. and, by Savage Arms, .32 A.S.P.), made by Leon Beau & Cie.
They are relatively common.

DocAV - I have yet to find a picture of the firearm for the bottle-necked 7.65 Beaux cartridge as made by S.F.M. If anyone has one, I wish they would post it here.

John Moss

John Moss