GJ headstamp confusion


#1

Ok, I had thought that it was common knowledge that the GJ headstamp on pinfires, and metric rimfires and whatever else it is on was made by SFM/Gevelot/Fabrique/Jules/etc, but I have seen a couple websites that list “Walbinger, Meuschel & Co., of Bischweiler, Germany” as the manufacturer responsible for this headstamp. Why is there confusion on this? Did they manufacture cartridges for Gevelot at any point?

Other headstamps attributed to Walbinger, Meuschel & Co. are:
and


#2

[quote=“AaronN322”]Ok, I had thought that it was common knowledge that the GJ headstamp on pinfires, and metric rimfires and whatever else it is on was made by SFM/Gevelot/Fabrique/Jules/etc, but I have seen a couple websites that list “Walbinger, Meuschel & Co., of Bischweiler, Germany” as the manufacturer responsible for this headstamp. Why is there confusion on this? Did they manufacture cartridges for Gevelot at any point?

Other headstamps attributed to Walbinger, Meuschel & Co. are:
and[/quote]

Very easy answer.
Walbinger, Meuschel, Bischweiler was part of SFM !
(as Leon Beaux in Italy,
Arms and Ammunition in England,
SA Anderlecht, Cartoucherie de Cureghem and CRB in Belgium)

All the Flobert Rim Fire ctges for these different factories were made in France.
About the Center Fire shotshells some were manufactured in France, some in the subsidary country. And some bears the French trade mark, some the same trade mark which was deposit also in the subsidary country.
Most of the primers (shotshells, military or commercial ctges) were made in the French factory.

JP


#3

[quote=“jeanpierre”]
Very easy answer.
Walbinger, Meuschel, Bischweiler was part of SFM !
(as Leon Beaux in Italy,
Arms and Ammunition in England,
SA Anderlecht, Cartoucherie de Cureghem and CRB in Belgium)

All the Flobert Rim Fire ctges for these different factories were made in France.
About the Center Fire shotshells some were manufactured in France, some in the subsidary country. And some bears the French trade mark, some the same trade mark which was deposit also in the subsidary country.
Most of the primers (shotshells, military or commercial ctges) were made in the French factory.

JP[/quote]

OK then, what about pinfires? Pinfire stamp GJ where were they made? and would it be better to label them as SFM being the manufacturer or rather as W.M.B.?


#4

[quote=“AaronN322”]
OK then, what about pinfires? Pinfire stamp GJ where were they made? and would it be better to label them as SFM being the manufacturer or rather as W.M.B.?[/quote]

When you find a ctge (pf or cf) with GJ hstp I would say made in France.
But this is just my opinion.
Indeed (despite the fact they are in BWM catalogues) I don’t know if BWM imported the ctges from France or also manufactured them.

Regarding French ctges, they were mostly only a few manufacturers.

The biggest ones were:
Gevelot/SFM,
Cartoucherie Francaise,
Ernest Gaupillat (before the fusion with Gevelot to make SFM)
Marcel Gaupillat (only during a few years (1891 till 1914), after it was part of SFM)
Albert Barnier (till about 1930, after it becomes SFM)
Chaudun (at the beginning, after it becomes SFM)
Cartoucherie Nationale (from after WWII till 1960)
Rey Freres (From after WWII)

Indeed :
Cartoucherie Stephanoise was SFM
MGM (founded about 1930) was part of SFM
Tardy, Flobert, Lefaucheux and so on ctges were made by Gevelot/SFM
Robert ctges were made at the beginning by Chaudun anf after by SFM
Manufrance, Manufacture francaise d’armes et cycles de st etienne, Verney Carron, Douillerie francaise, never made any ctge
And so on

JP


#5

Aaron–While I am sure JP is correct about all the different companies being part of SFM, I would think that listing them under the company name that marketed them would be more useful, with a note “Made by SFM for xxxx Co.” Most people trying to find them in your listing are going to be looking for the name on the box, not SFM.


#6

[quote=“jeanpierre”]
Indeed (despite the fact they are in BWM catalogues) I don’t know if BWM imported the ctges from France or also manufactured them.[/quote]

So the GJ headstamp on pinfires is found in BWM catalogs. Is it also found in SFM or Gevelot catalogs?

Do you have a scan of any of these?


#7

Ron is right.
It is exactly what I’ve made in my book.
I list for each gauge (CF, pf, rf) and for each standard all the manufacturers names you find on the ctges.

At the end of the book there is a listing telling you for each hstp who it is and who really made it.
Furthermore for each hstp I give two dates : the first and the last year the ctge is listed in a cataogue.

There is also for each company a brief history.

JP


#8

[quote=“AaronN322”]

  1. So the GJ headstamp on pinfires is found in BWM catalogs. Is it also found in SFM or Gevelot catalogs?

  2. Do you have a scan of any of these?[/quote]

  3. Yes. Yes

  4. Yes. But be patient because I am very busy right now

JP


#9

Hi,
Gj was the second quality trade mark for all the Fabrique Gévelot production. On pine fire hand gun ctgs, the hstp is a small raised GJ.In the early days of SFM , this hstp is keept but is impressed. Soon, the hstp GJ is dropped and replaced by copper wash brass cases with the caliber impressed for second quality ctgs. The new trade mark ( box label ) is G (star)
Bischweiller as a subsidiary of SFM , and due to the fact that GJ is not any more used by SFM is allowed to manufacture her own pine fire hand gun cartridges bearing the GJ hstp.
This hstp is impressed with large size letters ( instead of the small size Gévelot or SFM ‘s)
This is the answer.
H.A.N.D
phil


#10

Thanks for the info Philippe.

The only shotshell hstp I know with GJ is: 12 GJ 12 Bischweiler (from 1908).
This one was made at Bischweiler factory for sure.

My question is :
Does a shotshell (made in bischweiller ) exist with GJ only in the hstp ?
If yes, does the same rule apply as for the revolver PF ctges (small letter for one, big letters for the other) ?

JP


#11

[quote=“phil12”]Hi,
Gj was the second quality trade mark for all the Fabrique Gévelot production. On pine fire hand gun ctgs, the hstp is a small raised GJ.In the early days of SFM , this hstp is keept but is impressed. Soon, the hstp GJ is dropped and replaced by copper wash brass cases with the caliber impressed for second quality ctgs. The new trade mark ( box label ) is G (star)
Bischweiller as a subsidiary of SFM , and due to the fact that GJ is not any more used by SFM is allowed to manufacture her own pine fire hand gun cartridges bearing the GJ hstp.
This hstp is impressed with large size letters ( instead of the small size Gévelot or SFM ‘s)
This is the answer.
H.A.N.D
phil[/quote]

thanks! Mine all have the smaller GJ so I guess i will label them as Gevelot.

Do you happen to have one with the larger GJ I could see?


#12

The only [color=#BF0000]Bischweille[/color]r shotshell hstp I know with GJ is: 12 GJ 12 Bischweiler (from 1908).
This one was made at Bischweiler factory for sure.

My question is :
Does a shotshell (made in bischweiller ) exist with GJ only in the hstp ?
If yes, does the same rule apply as for the revolver PF ctges (small letter for one, big letters for the other) ?


#13

No idea if made by / in Bischweiller but I have a 9 mm brass cased extended neck Pin Fire shot load with an impressed “GJ [over] 9” headstamp. Tan topwad.
Hope it’s of help.


#14

Okkk… Here are my GJ’s I think these are 4 unique GJs on these 7mm ones. some start higher, some are smaller or thicker letters. and then a sample of the GJ stamps on two 9mm and 2 12mm

I would say that the first 7mm one, the first 9mm and the 2nd 12mm one were definitely made same place, same time period. These three have the wider GJ with being raised a lot less.

Phil, would any of these be considered larger GJs to you?

They all seem similar enough to me to assume that they were made in the same place… but then again, how hard would it be to try to make a GJ similar if you are another factory?


#15

Aaron, Undoubtedly, #2 & 3 bottom line are BWM , the others are Gévelot’s


#16

Anyway, don’t take too much attention where are made these ctges (and others).
Indeed SFM and Bischweiler plants used to swap manufacturing tools depending on the manufacturing load.
When one plant was busy it asked to the other one to manufacture the ctges and sent it all the tools. And back when there was too much work in the other plant.
Therefore you can have ctges with a bischwiller hstp made in France and ctges with french hstp made in bischwiller.
JP