Greek 6.5x53 with odd charger


#1

It has 5 Greek 1907 rounds, it came from Dan Dietz with a note “odd charger”. How is the charger supposed to look?



#2

[quote=“sksvlad”]It has 5 Greek 1907 rounds, it came from Dan Dietz with a note “odd charger”. How is the charger supposed to look?
[/quote]

May be Dan Dietz means that charger has an Austrian Hirtenberger headstamp (H in circle) and cartridges was put in this clip now. The clips is typical 6,5 Schoenauer.


#3

Exactly like the one you have.

This is a Pieper pattern charger that has the cartridges held securely in place by the spring tabs at each end. The guide slot on top of the rifle’s receiver has a backwards ‘slope’ which acts on the lugs on each side, lowering the tabs at the end. This allows the cartridges to be very easily stripped into the magazine.

A very simple and clever design that ultimately was smothered by the ubiquity of Herr Mauser’s type.

Happy collecting, Peter


#4

Peter’s reply above is correct. I would add that this charger is correct for the Greek Mannlicher Model 1903 rifles and carbines and the 1903/14 carbines.

This pattern of charger was patented in the UK as No. 25,762, the USA as No. 567,358 and in Belgium under number 118,262.

The same type of charger was also used in other calibres including; 7.63x21mm (7.63mm Mannlicher) for pistol Model 1901 and 7.65x25mm (7.65mm Mannlicher M.1896) for pistol Model 1903.

gravelbelly


#5

[quote=“gravelbelly”]Peter’s reply above is correct. I would add that this charger is correct for the Greek Mannlicher Model 1903 rifles and carbines and the 1903/14 carbines.

This pattern of charger was patented in the UK as No. 25,762, the USA as No. 567,358 and in Belgium under number 118,262.

The same type of charger was also used in other calibres including; 7.63x21mm (7.63mm Mannlicher) for pistol Model 1901 and 7.65x25mm (7.65mm Mannlicher M.1896) for pistol Model 1903.

gravelbelly[/quote]

The patent can be found here;

google.com/patents?id=LdxpAA … &q&f=false

Happy collecting, Peter


#6

You may also find something odd. Hirtenberger chargers with HXP cartidges! This happened because the Greek Army had issued orders that the chargers should not be disposed but returned when possible.


#7

Aris: So then there are 6.5 m/m cartridges with the HXP headstamp? I am familiar with that marking on post-1945 ammunition in .303 and .30-06, but as I recall the Greek-made 6.5 m/m I have seen–all of pre WW.2 manufacture–was made by EPK. Jack


#8

There are also a few made in 47-49 during the Greek Civil war , the troops were armed with M1’s , the navy and airforce with SMLE , but the police was armed with whatever was available so XHP produced some thousands of 6.5x54MS. By the way the M1903 could also chamber the Carcano cartridge also this was the ammo the communists were using.


#9

Aris: Interesting about the post-1945 Greek 6.5 m/m ammunition. Concerning the similarity of the 6.5 m/m Carcano and the Mannlicher-Schoenauer–several years ago an importer here in the U.S. sold some mixed lots of 6.5 m/m Carcano said to have been imported from Albania. An acquaintance bought 100 rounds of this and included in the lot was one 7.35 m/m Carcano and one 6.5 m/m Greek cartridge. At arm’s length they all look about the same! Thanks, Jack


#10

A background note on Mannlicher-Schoenauer chargers:

Mötz reports that the first charger intended for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle was a one-piece Mannlicher design, but that no specimen of this is now known.

The Pieper-Mannlicher charger illustrated in this thread was adopted early in the rifle’s development – I once had a specimen made by Keller, marked “KC”, which contained 5 dummy cartridges (hstp: " * / KC / * / 00", possibly made for the Portuguese trials). This type is the commonest one found and was subsequently used by Hirtenberger (marked “H”), DWM (“DWuM”) and Kynoch (“K”), among others.

A third type made for the 6.5 M-S rifle was a 3-piece spring-and-platform design made by Georg Roth. This design was like the one later used by the Czechs for their M.24 7.9x57 rifle.

And to follow on from Peter’s remarks above about the ubiquity of the Mauser chargers, a fourth type was a version of the one widely made for the M.93 7x57 Mauser. This one closely resembled the M.93 charger, but the distance between the cartridge-retaining flanges was reduced to 10mm to match the smaller groove diameter of the 6.5x54 cartridge. This was made by SFM, Hirtenberger, and probably others.

John E


#11

Old draw from SFM Factory



Bsrg, Dan


#12

[quote=“Munavia”]Old draw from SFM Factory
[/quote]

Many, many thanks for showing those drawings, SFM is a makers mark that I’ve yet to see on this type of charger.

Another mystery maker is ‘FJ’ whose mark appears on a variety of other types of charger, does anyone know who "FJ’ might be?


Although the clip adheres to the general design of Peiper chargers there is an interesting variation at the ends of the spring and the marking is raised from the surface so it appears as a cameo.

Happy collecting, Peter


#13

As you are aware Peter, I know nothing of clips and chargers, but for your example “F.Joyce” springs to mind as a possibility.

Regards
TonyE


#14

Tony –

It is unlikely that the “F.J.” marked charger was by Frederick Joyce. So far as I can discover Joyce was well-known as a producer of percussion caps, shotshells and some commercial brass cartridge cases. In 1907 the firm was taken over by Nobel Explosives Co Ltd, who apparently made use of its case making capability. However in 1910 Nobels sold the name “Joyce” to Eley, and from then on it was only used as a brand name on shotshell cases, which continued into the Eley-Kynoch era.

As Peter says, the “F.J.” mark is known on other chargers, and is quite common on 7.9x57 chargers. In this usage it is listed by Windisch et al as an unknown German mark of pre-WW2 vintage.

John E


#15

Thanks John, I was aware of the history of Joyce, and I did profess my ignorance of matters clip and charger and only make a suggestion.

In my defence I would point out that throughout the First War Birmingham Matals and Munitions Co., part of Nobel Industries, continued to use the code “J” for ammunition produced at the old F.Joyce plant.

Regards
TonyE


#16

A couple of nights ago I was leafing thru White and Munhall and stumbled onto an entry depicting a headstamp reading “38 S&W FJ” (not certain of periods after the F and J). The authors attribute this to Frederick Joyce, but in the light of the earlier posts here I did wonder. A good bit of ammo in American handgun calibers was produced in Germany and Austria in, particularly, the 1920s with various unrevealing headstamps. Is this in fact a product of Joyce, or is it perhaps related to the chargers discussed in this thread? Jack


#17

Jorion & Regenstreif in their “Culots de Munitions” also show the “FJ 38S&W” hstp, with the note that it was made by Eley Bros for London armourer “Frank” Joyce & Co Ltd. If true, the case was probably loaded and sold by Joyce.

John E


#18

John: White and Munhall, on the one hand, and Jorion and Regenstreif, on the other, appear to be giving different answers. Do you feel that the attribution to Frank Joyce is the correct one? Jack


#19

Jack –

I know it has been reported that, as well as shot shells, Frederick Joyce made brass-cased sporting cartridges, and that after buying the firm Nobels used their plant to make cartridges for them. And Tony E has pointed out that .303 cases were made there during WW1. I also remember reading somewhere or other that Eley made cases for Joyce, but I haven’t seen any documentary evidence. Perhaps Tony E could tell us more about this?

However, I have seen no evidence that Joyce made 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer or 7.9x57 Mauser cartridges, and think it highly unlikely that they would have got involved in sheet steel work to make chargers. I have seen no evidence, for example, that they ever made .303 chargers during WW1 – expansion in this field was largely left in the hands of the Birmingham pen-nib manufacturers!

In view of all this I tend to go along with Windisch’s view that “FJ” on chargers was most probably the mark of an unknown, probably German, manufacturer.

John E


#20

John: Yes, I can see that it’s unlikely there’s any connection to the FJ-marked chargers. Thanks. Jack