Greek 7.92x36


#1

Around 1939 HXP developed a 7.92x36 round
The data that I have managed to collect are:
Parent case : 6.5x45MS
Max Case Length : 36mm
Max Cartridge length : 53mm
Bullet length : 22mm
Bullet weight : 8 grams

It was developed for this weapon:

photo taken from:
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Info/Pyrkal.html

Does anyone have more info on this cartridge?


#2

I believe that is about all the info you will find on that cartridge. I have never heard of anyone actually seeing or owning an example.


#3

I believe there is a Greek Powder Company advertising book or catalogue of that period that shows this round (I don’t have a copy of it myself). Does anyone have a copy?

Regards
TonyE


#4

There might be a headstamp in Labbett, but it might be drawn. I’ll take a peek when I get home.
Tony, you must have the Labbett book on assault-rifle ammo.


#5

Tony, The only original documentation I know for this weapon is in “Greek Powder & Cartridge Co. Ltd. 1874-1939” which was printed in Athans in 1940. The book is 196 pages long, mostly large photos of the company facilities and equipment but an excellent section on ammunition. There is no picture of this cartridge. On page 183, almost as an afterthought is a page titled “SMALL ARMS MANUFACTURING PLANT” which indicates that they are just completing the organization of the plant. It includes a picture of the gun (the same one shown above) and goes on to say, “The light Machine-gun shown below enters into our Manufacturing program and has been entirely designed in our Factories by our technical services. Some of these light Machine-guns have already been manufactured in our small arms Plant.”

The description of the gun is as follows:

The Woodin Lab may have a specimen of this cartirdge but I have never seen an example.

Hope this is useful.

Cheers,
Lew


#6

Tony - I have an original English-Language copy of the Greek Powder & Cartridge Co. Ltd. Company History/Catalog covering the period 1874-1939. On page 183, It shows the “Light Machine-Gun” (no other designation given) and has specifications on the cartridge, but does not show the cartridge.

Following is a reproduction of the table of specifications:

Continuous or Intermittent firing at will (I assume this means “full or semi-auto fire”)

Rate of fire (theoretical)…720 round per min.
Caliber…7.92 mm
Practical Range…750 m.
Weight of light Machine-gun (empty)…4.150 Kgs.
Length over all…900 mm
Length of Barrel…400 mm
Vso…520 m.sec.
Length of cartridge…53 mm
Length of cartridge case…36 mm
Length of bullet…22 mm
Weight of bullet… 8 gm.
Weight of charge…1.2 gms.

This must have been a 1939 development, because it makes the following comments about the gun:

 "The light Machine-gun shown below enters into our Manufacturing program and has been entirely designed in our Factories by our technical services.

 "Some of these light Machine-guns have already been manufactured in our small arms Plant."

The use of capitol letters, spelling, etc. are as in the book.

The only rifle calibers shown, with pictures, in the catalog section are the following:

6.5 mm Mannlicher Schönauer (Shown exactly as that in the table)
7 x 57 mm Mauser
8 mm Mannlicher (case length not shown)
7.92 mm Mauser
7.65 mm Mauser
7.92 Hotchkiss (I assume this is a machine gun loading of the 7.92 Mauser, but not sure of that)
7.85 mm Lebel (designation from the table. The picture shows the cartridge as “8 mm.”)
7.7 mm British S.M.L.E. (.303 British)

Above data on pages 142, 143. They also manufactured the 13.2 mm Anti-Aircraft cartridge, as well as better rounds, shotgun shells, and a wide selection of pistol and revolver cartridges.
I am sure that Chris Punnett knows that the .450 Revolver is listed here. I hope for his sake it is not as rare as the 9 mm Bayard, also made by them. I have not found a specimen to acquire in 45 years of collecting auto pistol. There is one in the Woodin Laboratory, but with a very poor headstamp stamping.

On page 148, the mention the types of “Special Ammunition” they made:

For Infantry:

Armour-piercing
Tracer
Armour-piercing-tracer
Incendiary
Aim-correcting

For Anti-aircraft and Anti-tank defence:

Armour-piercing
Armour-Piercing-tracer
Explosive
Explosive-tracer.

The wording of the text would indicate that these loadings are found with the caliber spread of “6 mm” up to “8 mm” for rifles and LMGs, and from "12.7 and 23 up to 13.2 mm for HMGs.

The text on page 149 indicates that the “Aim-correcting cartridge” must be similar to the German B-patrone.

Hope this is of some help and interest.


#7

Sorry for some duplication with Lew’s posting. I did not scroll down far enough I guess, and did not see his posting.


#8

I have access to the mentioned catalog in Greek and I have something for you
(It is published on Lutz Mulller’s hunting site also)

it says " 13.2mm Anti-aircraft" and "HEAVY MACHINEGUN CARTRIDGES "
but for this cartridge (7.92x36) there is nothing to be found, I search also the Greek patents office with little success.


#9

Given that the photo is a good rendition of the “New LMG”, the ejector slot looks a lot bigger than for a 36mm cartridge…it looks more like that on a proper 7,9x57 cartridge…but I could be wrong here ( Just comparing the slot with other features of the gun, such as Grips etc.

And, WHERE is the magazine…is it Lateral, on the left side?
The general layout of the gun reminds me of the Berthier designs of Vickers ( Vickers GO, and Vickers-Berthier LMG of Indian use.) BTW, this Berthier was a different one from the French Berthier Carbines of the 1890s.

regards,
Doc AV


#10

In his book on assault rifle cartridges, Peter Labbett stated: “The cartridge is known to exist but no surviving sample of the rifle is known.” He also included a drawing of a 1936 headstamp.


#11

The magazine was placed on the left side, but no specimens or pictures of it exist.

Can somebody help me with a scan of this headstamp


#12

Labbett illustrates this headstamp but it’s wrong. Correct date actually is 1938.

Old picture from WHW collection:

Some extra information abouth the firearm can be found at “Ta opla ton Ellinon” (Arms of the Greeks) by Christos Sazanidis.


#13

Is there a color tip on that cartridge?


#14

Thanks a lot Fede , I actually own " Τα όπλα των Ελλήνων " from this picture I can make an estimated drawing of the actual round. Actually this is a first attempt:


#15

There is an English language copy of the monograph on the Greek Powder and Cartridge Co Ltd 1874-1939 in the library at the Royal Armouries in Leeds. As well as the rifle calibre rounds listed about there are illustrations of the various pistol calibers they produced at that time. These are;

6,35mm
7,65mm
38 S&W Short
9mm Para
32 S&W Special
8mm Lebel
7,62 Nagant
38 S&W Special
Cal 440 (lead bullet)
No. 320 (lead bullet)
32 S&W Short
11mm Hellenic Army (lead bullet)
No. 450 (lead bullet)
No. 442 (lead bullet)
No. 380 Long (lead bullet)
No. 380 Short (lead bullet)
Cal. 500 (lead bullet)
9mm Bayard
No. 44 (lead bullet)

Happy collecting, Peter


#16

Well here’s one I just found to add to the list, a .45ACP. GM bullet, brass case and primer.


#17

New one on me! With the green seal, it looks pretty modern. Any idea of the actual year(s) of production? Is the bullet GM, GMCS, CN, CNCS, or brass jacketed?

The 7.9 x 36 cartridge information on this thread is very important. So is this .45 Auto ENK headstamp, which to my knowledge, has not been seen before.

I would suggest that this .45 info and picture be split off to a new thread, and the 7.92 x 36 thread be left as it was, to make info from both easier to find in the future. JMHO on the matter.


#18

John,
According to Butch Daubner’s list you have the round.


#19

Jon - Butch Daubner’s list is wrong. I do NOT have the round, and have not seen on except for your picture.
In fact, I can’t find it listed on the last copy of Daubner’s list that I have, so my copy is obviously not up to date. Please post the bullet information on this round. Even if I had it, it should be on the Forum for those not familiar with it (such as me!). By the way, realizing my memory is becoming very spotty of late, I just finished checking my collection for it, and have only a very small variety of “HXP” headstamped Greek .45s.


#20

Appears to be a standard GM bullet. I will forward to you my latest Daubner list.