Greener Mk III Police 14 bore cartridge


#1

Has anyone got an example of this cartridge? I am looking for any references in other literature as well. I have found the reference in David Cushman’s website.
For anyone not familiar with the cartridge it is quite interesting. I am not sure if it was ever issued to British police or not but if it was it wasn’t in very significant numbers.


#2

I have two cartridges for the greener police gun .One is a cylindrical empty case , so it is a standard 14 gauge brass shotshell .
The other one is a loaded cartridge with bottleneck shape


#3

Thanks for those, its the bottleneck version I am particularly interested in. Your one has a date too! 1950 is quite late.

It is said, but I don’t know if its true that the choice of 14 bore and the bottle necking was to make obtaining ammunition for them more difficult in the event of them being stolen in an uprising. I know they were issued in Egypt and I don’t know where else.

EK? Greek?


#4

I think it was made FOR the greek army by another factory

I think also that your theory about the origin of these odd-shaped cartridges is right


#5

Bottlenecked case, different headstamp.


#6

EK Eley Kynoch not Greek


#7

To the best of my Knowledge this round was not used by any UK police forces.

The choice of the calibre and the design of the case were indeed intended to make it difficult to find or make ammunition for any stolen weapons. The principal method though was the groove in the head of the Mark III type cartridges. The Mark III gun had a firing pin like a trident. The centre pin acted in the normal way whilst the two outer pins fitted into the groove in the case head. If a normal shotshell was used the outer pins would prevent the normal firing pin from striking the cap. (I hope that makes sense)

Attached are three different Kynoch labels for the rounds.

Also in June 1942, 2,800 Greener police guns were diverted from the Egyptian Police to India by the SOE for arming “irregulars”, presumably in the event of a successful Japanese invasion.

Regards
TonyE


#8

Weren’t some of these loaded with cubic shot so that anyone who went to hospital to get the shot removed would be marked straight away as having been shot by police?


#9

Not the Greener guns AFAIK, but the 11mm Remingtons, usually called the .43 Egyptian Remington, certainly were.

I have the Kynoch shot cartridge loaded with cubic shot.

In the same vein there was also a version of the .410 Indian Musket loaded with segmental shot. This was a lead slug cut into six segments like a cake.

Regards
TonyE


#10

There was also a run of gold colored all plastic cased 12/14 ga. made in both shot and slug (tubular lead with internal helical vanes) by (or for) Navy Arms. There is a “V F” rather than “E K” on the headstamp which I would assume are the initials for Val Forgett. They have a rolled crimp that seems to be splitting at the case mouth due to the plastic getting on in years.


I had seen the Martini actioned guns for sale on the surplus market not too long ago. Listed as curios as ammunition is “not available”. Looked like it had been used as a fence post perhaps, if I remember right…

Dave


#11

they are some for sale on the gunbroker site auction place 14 gauge and 12/14 gauge greener police


#12

I’d posted these pictures on the previous forum. These rounds were from the collection of the late Jim Russell. More recently I’ve learned that there is a aluminum cased 14 ga with a headstamp date of 1947.


Here are some pictures of the 14 ga Greener shells. The internal shape of the primer cup doesn’t show up very well in the photo, but for the round on the right, the shape is domed whereas the round on the left is flat topped.


The following are plastic cased Greener’s (12/14 ga).



The following are Egyptian made rounds. There are 2 different topwads and 3 different headstamps – which are all quite faint.



The balance are British loads. They vary in headstamp and load/topwad combinations.


Paul


#13

The VF Does stand for Val Forgett the owner of Navy Arms. He had a need for these plastic shells because when he purchased Greener’s he had a bunch of the guns but no ammunition to speak of, and once told me his plastic shells were the first long lived/practical all plastic shells, although we can see they are now splitting.

The 1947 dated Aluminum shell a Type I, (straight case, with partial or full rose crimp and using for the early variations a typical battery cup primer and later without as Paul shows). Both the Type I and the Type II (with the grooved head, bottleneck case) were made in both one and two piece cases. (brass head brass body)

The early Type II had the headstamp in the groove & my earliest date is 1941. I believe 1939 is the earliest date (at least that I’m aware of Anyone have an EXTRA 39 ??? he asks hopefully)

Vince should you want photos for an article? E-mail not PM me


#14

Hi,

Excuse my ignorance on this topic.

I have a Greener Police Gun cartridge which does not have a bottle neck. The case is 2.48 inches long, the rim is 0.846 inches in diameter, and the base is 0.769 diameter. The headstamp is “GREENER EK POLICE GUN” and it has what looks to be a brass primer. The headstamp looks identical to the first headstamp photo posted by Paul Smith with the smaller font. The case mouth looks like it was annealed, is a domed star crimped and has a paperboard topwad. Is this a 14 or 12 bore Greener? From what limited dimensional data I have, I am guessing it is the 14 bore. Was there a type of 14 Greener that was known as a Mk II and what was the different compared to the Mk III?

Thanks for any information.

Heavyiron


#15

I notice that the cartridges in Paul’s pictures don’t have the groove. Thats interesting and would raise the question of compatability although it wouldn’t have been too difficult to grind off the interceptor pins.


#16

Heavyiron. I believe the MKIII refers to the gun and not the cartridge. The gun was the Greener GP which was a shotgun version of the military martini and was made and sold in Britain up to the 60s. It has a bit of a following today and a good secondhand example fetches a good price.

The military Martini was make in four marks and I presume the police gun used the Mk III version although apparantly made by an outside manufacturer, Greener.


#17

Hello!
You have two Greener ctges for police.

  1. The first one, is straigth and has no groove (it looks like a 14 gauge but it has not exactly the dimensions of a 14 Gauge)

  2. The second one, 12/14, is bottelnecked and has a groove.

A rare ctge is the one made by SFM.
Hstp is S (instead of E) Greener F (instead of K) Police Gun

JP


#18

Hello Heavyiron
Please look again at the post above yours as I note the MK I case is straight sided without the grooved head. And note the MK II is the bottleneck case with the grooved head. As noted by Vince Green the MK III refers to the weapon as there were only the two basic cartridge case types/shapes. Sorry, I didn’t make that point.
Your MK I would be the later variation case with the non-batterycup style primer (A Battery cup primer is the older style shot gun shell style with a second piece, as seen from the outside, fitting around the primer, and which is basically a removeable primer pocket. When reloading those shells, normally, the battery cup and primer were sold as a unit and replaced as such.) Your MK I would have the primer pocket formed in/part of the case. Paul notes the two different shapes to the exterior of the pocket as seen from inside the case.
All the MK I shells are considered as 14 bore.
The MK II are considered 12 / 14 because the base is 12 while the neck is [close to] 14. (see the below diameters)

Vince; As to grinding off the interceptor pins, I don’t think it would suffice, as the bottle neck in the MK II chamber should prevent a MK I case from chambering.
a typical MK I mouth is .746" dia. {and about 750" at the same distance [about 1.19" up] from the base to just above the shoulder on the MK II measured below}.
a typical MK II mouth is 738" dia., and .741" just above the shoulder (about 1.19" up).
But perhaps with a big enough hammer ? ? ?


#19

Hello Pete !

14 Greener is different than 14 Gauge

  1. The chamber front diameter of the gun is smaller than for a 14 Gauge gun.
    Therefore a 14 Gauge ctge will not enter a 14 Greener gun

  2. The case length of a Greener ctge is smaller than a 14 Gauge ctge length

JP


#20

JP,
just a question.All my brass shotshells of my collection are a little shorter than the paper or plastic variations , for example 63 mm versus 65 mm .Don’t know if this is typical of italian factories or can be found around the world .Do you know why the brass variations are shorter?