Grendel silent 12ga


#1

Any info/pics on the grendel silent 12ga shell ??


#2

12 ga. Silent Line Throwing ammo is mentioned IAA journal number 427


#3

I haven’t heard of any connection to “Grendel” in regards to these (AFAIK, they were part of a project by Aircraft Armaments Incorporated/AAI), but are these what you’re thinking of?


#4

This is a scan of the typical 12 ga. Grendl silent shot shell and the projectile. These are silent and not legal to own without a license in the US. The penetrator and plastic fins sit on a black plastic pusher base with stops at the case mouth and contains the sound of the charge. The aluminum case is not this obviously machined. The scanner exaggerates it. It looks nearly smooth .

No headstamp.


#5

Not the same company.

These AAI shells used a “TELECARTRIDGE” expanding metal bladder to contain the sound of the charge. The grendl used a thick wad and a lower pressure charge to throw a flechette style projectile.

The AAI versions were much higher pressure and were steel cases.


#6

[quote=“CSAEOD”]This is a scan of the typical 12 ga. Grendl silent shot shell and the projectile. These are silent and not legal to own without a license in the US. The penetrator and plastic fins sit on a black plastic pusher base with stops at the case mouth and contains the sound of the charge. The aluminum case is not this obviously machined. The scanner exaggerates it. It looks nearly smooth .

No headstamp.[/quote]

THANKS…Thats it…NICE I have the blue paper info insert that came with the rounds and wanted to see what people had to say about them.I know the ruleings.


#7

Can anyone cite what law(s) he’s refering to? I’ve heard that “Black Talons” were illegal, but actually it’s my understanding that dealers just restricted their sales after the bad publicity.

Other than explosive type of munitions, is any ammunition really illegal in the U.S.?

Jones

P.S.

With the exception of Kalifornia? (It’s somewhere on the West coast.)


#8

Can anyone cite what law(s) he’s refering to? I’ve heard that “Black Talons” were illegal, but actually it’s my understanding that dealers just restricted their sales after the bad publicity.

Other than explosive type of munitions, is any ammunition really illegal in the U.S.?

Jones

P.S.

With the exception of Kalifornia? (It’s somewhere on the West coast.)[/quote]

Talons are NOT illegal uder any law…thats all BS.

Even TRUE pistol AP is NOT illegal to collect.

The captive piston type rounds are a very special type round.

They are illegal uder the same class 3 laws that cover all suppressors.In fact these type rounds are better than 99% of the suppessor designs in the area of noise & flash ,but their are major drawbacks also…no free lunch.


#9

Very interesting! Thanks :-)


#10

I just finished re-reading the National Firearms Act of 1968 regarding suppressors and ammunition. It does not appear to be applicable. Of course you may own a suppressor if you pay the tax, as with a fully auto and etc. But the NFA of 1968 refers to “devices” that attach to a firearm as suppressors.

I would appreciate if anyone could give me the reference to the specfic laws restricting ammunition (Federal) in the United States.

Thanks,

Jones


#11

I just finished re-reading the National Firearms Act of 1968 regarding suppressors and ammunition. It does not appear to be applicable. Of course you may own a suppressor if you pay the tax, as with a fully auto and etc. But the NFA of 1968 refers to “devices” that attach to a firearm as suppressors.

I would appreciate if anyone could give me the reference to the specfic laws restricting ammunition (Federal) in the United States.

Thanks,

Jones[/quote]

It is applicable…trust me. You dont want to have a captive piston round and not have a tax stamp to go with it.If ya fire the round the tax stamp is void each round is treated as a seperate suppressor.Can get real expensive.

I do think their was a small part added on in the late 1980s on this type ammo to the general class 3 laws but finding that may be hard.

The PPA 0f 1986 has a lot of ammo law in it.


#12

The PPA? Doesn’t ring a bell, can you elaborate?
Thanks,

Jones


#13

Its the bill that shut down “pistol AP” You know the the old cop killer BS.

Here is some info

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition’ means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

© The term `armor piercing ammunition’ does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]

Note the following things from the definition:

  1. The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
    primarily by the addition of “full jacketed” bullets intended to be used
    in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
    language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

  2. AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
    identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
    information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
    transfer AP ammo.
    From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
    completed rounds does not constitute “making” AP ammo; making the
    bullets themselves does.

  3. USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
    construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
    mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
    in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
    bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
    as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
    least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
    or should be AP ammo.
    However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
    their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
    must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
    handgun.

  4. CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
    of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
    with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
    .223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
    steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
    cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
    SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

  5. Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

  6. Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet.
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

         WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
The only persons who can make AP ammo are holders of a type 10
FFL, also needed to make destructive devices, and ammunition for
destructive devices. The only persons who can import AP ammo
are holders of a type 11 FFL, who can also import DD’s and ammo
for DD’s. The FFL’s cost $1000 a year.

If you are a licensed manufacturer or importer:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(8)
(with exceptions for making/importing for law enforcement, export, or R&D).
No additional restrictions, except as listed below. This applies
not only to holders of type 10 and 11 FFL’s, but also type 7 and 8
FFL’s (makers and importers of guns other than DD’s), as well as
holders of a type 06 FFL (maker of ammo other than for DD’s).

If you are a licensed dealer, manufacturer, importer or collector:
NOT ok to SELL or DELIVER AP ammo without keeping a record of the sale, similar
to the bound book record for firearm sales. (18 USC sec. 922(b)(5)).
No additional restriction, except on dealers as noted below.
The records required to kept on sale or delivery of AP ammo need only
be kept for two years, not twenty years, like firearm records. See
27 CFR sec. 178.121, and 27 CFR sec. 178.125.

18 USC sec. 923(e) allows the revocation of a dealer's FFL

for willfully transferring AP ammo, with exceptions for sales to law
enforcement and so on. This is dealers only; holders of a collector
FFL (type 03) may willfully transfer AP ammo if they wish, but must comply
with the record keeping noted above.

Some states also regulate or prohibit armor piercing ammo, and these
laws may bear no relation to how the federal law works. For state
laws, check locally. The following states regulate AP ammo,
to my knowledge, but the definition of AP ammo and sort of
regulation may (and likely does) deviate widely from the federal
approach. NV, OK, RI, VA, AL, NY, NJ, IL, IN, KS, LA, MN, FL, PA, TX, NC.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The former statute: 18 USC 921(a)(17)(B) - “The term ‘armor
piercing ammunition’ means a projectile or projectile core which
may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding
the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination
of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required
by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes,
a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the
Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes,
including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.”


#14

Cobb,

Thanks for the information. It’s most helpful. Briefly reading over it, it appears you can own AP ammo? I’m looking at this from a cartridge collecting stand point. But you still feel you cannot own (legally) the “silent” shotshell?

I would hate to get busted on having my ammo collection!!

Jones


#15

I ran across this picture while I was looking for information on subsonic shotgun loads.

This guy maintains that subsonic shotshells used with his “Quiet Shotgun” (see picture) is the ideal combination. Check the barrel length and BTW, this guy is for real! Not a fake photo.
Jones


#16

The posting that says pistol armor piercing is not illegal to collect needs to be qualified. Many states, I believe, not just the PRC (California, not China), restrict the sale of of things like KTW. Further, in California, and again, I believe there are other states, tracer and incendiary ammunition of any caliber is illegal to possess (each round a separate count felony), unless you have a California Destructive Device License, which is a similar license to a Machine Gun license, except that it might be granted, whereas I don’t know any individual collector (not a Dealer - there are some of those) that ever got an MG license in California. When I gave up my Ca DD License, due to a general winding down of my collecting due to age, my general collection took a 2200 round hit - 2200 cartridges that I had to get rid of outside of the state of California. So, while in many states almost no ammo is illegal, one cannot make a general statement about any type, I think.


#17

The Grendls. in ammo collecting circles came mostly from a long time IAA member who is(was) an FBI agent. He said that the BATF had closed them down and that the shells were illegal due to being silent. They come apart easily and can be “inerted” easily in other ways to make them legal.These had a very small hole drilled just above the rim to dump the powder. You can see from the illustration how simple they are. I have not kept up on these so have no idea of the current situation with this company and shell manufacture. I doubt that they are still making these as the licensing would make them far more trouble than worth.

AS A MATTER OF RULE WHEN AN FBI AGENT WHO COLLECTS AMMO TELLS ME THAT SOMETHING IS ILLEGAL I BELIEVE IT. NEVER FELT THE NEED TO RESEARCH THE LAW. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

The AAI silent shotshells are an entirely different. They developed the revolutionary expanding metal bladder which was used in several calibers of ammo and also in spacecraft applications to provide a propelling force with little or no sound and with the charge entirely captured. In the photo posted here the top specimen is FIRED and the metal bladder protrudes beyond the mouth. In the bottom photo the bladder is folded in the base of the shell.


#18

well, I know nothing of this interesting ammunition and find it pretty cool. I do really like that hudge shotgun!!!


#19

CSAEOD,

I’ve been in law enforcement for 35+ years, 16 of those years with a Federal police agency and I would believe a guy who collects ammo… even if he was an FBI Agent.

Thanks for all the information guys.

Jones


#20

Jones, there are many state, even municipal, restrictions on what specimens may owned legally in a given jurisdiction. These restrictions roughly parallel the restrictions on firearms. I.e., in a place such as NYC, San Francisco or other , these are supremely stupid while in Texas, or other parts of the United States, they remain largely unrestricted by anything except the ridiculous Federal laws. It behooves any collector to research the laws of their own state, as there may well be quirks limiting the specimens which can be held, bought or imported, what is “grand-fathered,” etc. No one has yet, AFAIK, made possession of empty cartridge brass a crime, but I am certain there are those who do or would advocate such restrictions.

Anyone who wishes to continue this hobby or anything remotely connected to the shooting sports in any manner would do well to be [u]aggressively[/u] activist in these matters, with regular communication to elected officials, etc.

.