Guilford Engineering 9mm ANSB components


Here are some close-up photos with grain weights of the components from Guilford’s 9mm AP load with ANSB projectile (tubular steel core with solid base):

The shape of the jacket base is interesting, and I assume these are all +P.


I’ll ask about the +p next time I speak with anyone at GEA. I know they had std .38sp, .38sp +p, and .357M on their tech drawings.

The bullet construction is definitely different that the .38sp GEA round I have…it almost looks jointed/dovetailed around the circumference of the projectile (someone probably has a good closeup; I have a new camera but haven’t gotten the hang of it quite yet!). Very cool photos BTW.

Acc. to GEA, the round was also tested in .45acp but I have yet to see one.

My thinking is that the design would make many standard 9mm SMG platforms into a better military PDW, but the focus seems to be on tiny bottleneck cartridges.


I have not seen the ANSB projectile in .45 either, although I have also heard that they tested with it.

There are variations in the 9 mm version, including different cases used and different bullet shapes. I would assume that the round with GEA headstamp was the finalized version. I have a round in a W-W case with the bullet seated out much farther (1.0575 inch overall cartridge length). The steel tip is a dark-gray color, rathen than the black finish of the others. Also, the shoulder (one might say “bevel”) on the copper portion right below the steel tip is much wider than that on the others. Oddly, this is the lightest of the four cartridges I have, at 139.8 grains overall cartridge weight. The round in GEA-headstamped case weighs 147.00 grains overall and has an OAL of 1.0365". I have one in a NATO-marked IVI 68 case that has a similar overall length as the GEA-headstamped round, but there is a greater gap between the steel tip and the copper portion of the projectile, with less copper exposed above the case mouth. (OAL GEA: 1.0385"; OAL IVI 1.028"). Finally, there is one in a W-W case with overall cartridge length of 1.0275" that is the same projectile as that in the IVI-headstamped round. Both the IVI and W-W round with the same bullet have similar overall weights, with the IVI at 141.8 grains and the W-W at 139.8 grains.

Regarding the .45, I do have one of the GEA “tunnel” HP rounds in that caliber, as well as one in 9 mm Winchester Magnum.


I just noticed putting the rounds back in the drawer that I have a new specimen bullet (no evidence of being pulled from a loaded round) of the type from the longest OAL cartridge (In W-W case). It weighs 78.2 grains, and aside from having the unblackened steel tip, looks the same as the bullet shown in the original picture on this thread. The bullet has a slight boattail, and a cavity in the base, with the bottom of that cavity being flat. OAL of the projectile is 0.5725".

I assume that the black coating or finish of the later bullets is some sort of rust inhibitor. It would not be there for any bore protection, since that part of the bullet doesn’t contact the bore.

John Moss


The black finish likely results from the heat treatment process for hardening.


Above are two pictures I found in my photo file that I took a couple of years ago. They have probably appeared on the Forum before, but I felt they might round out this thread and be a good adjunct to my written description of the 9 mm ANSB rounds I have. Note that the rounds in the picture are NOT in the same order, necessarily, as my written description before. I think it will be easy to figure them out, though. I have showed the airfoil cartridges from Guilford as well. These are all the Guilford items I have in my collection. The long round (first at left, bottom row) is 9 mm Winchester Magnum caliber.

Since in the past, I have been questioned about the originality of this item, I have included a second picture showing it with the box label for it. It is absolutely genuine.

For a long time, I had not identified the two .45s in the plastic sabots as being from Guilford. I have been told on good authority that they are. If anyone has any dissenting opinions, I would be happy to hear them.

I am sure that someone like Lew or Bill W. have many more items than I in their collections of these Guilford Types.

Cartridges and photos from John Moss



You could be right, but I have the one load that soes NOT have the black finish, along with a new bullet from the same load that also doesn’t have the black finish. I don’t know if they hardened these steel tips or not. But, bare steel rusts, which is why the extractor grooves on some CWS-cased rounds have are painted black - they were cut
after the CW process was applied to the case draw, before the extractor grooves were cut. The paint was to prevent rusting.

I don’t know which answer is correct - maybe both, maybe neither.

John Moss


John–Concerning the reason for the painted extractor grooves , at least on 7.62x39, you are only partially correct. Except for North Korea made cases, and perhaps one or two other countries, most of the “CWS” cases are actually made from steel sandwiched between 2 cold rolled layers of copper.
Although “Copper Washed Steel” is the commonly used term for all these copper looking steel cases, it is technically incorrect. Your explanation of the reason for the paint IS correct. And, BTW, the North Korean cases DO NOT have painted extractor grooves. They electroplate the finished cases, so the extractor groove is copper coated as well.