Headspace-Gauges


#1

I got 2 headspace-gauges for 7,92x57mm. The two gauges showed the marking “ G.98. “ and the numbers 2,85 or 2,60. In addition to the numbers, there are two letters which could be the first letters of the name of the manufacturer of these gauges. This two letter could possibly be read as FD or ID. There are no acceptance-marks visible. I compared the inscription with the inscription of a gauge which was used in a Bavarian Weapons-factory. The stile of the letters looked very similar. This gauge also showed the marking “G98”, which I interpret as the short form of “Gewehr 98”.


Could anyone give some more information about these gauges and the inscriptions?


#2

Hi

This is a factory test of cartridge chambers. G 98 = Gewehr 98. Nice found … FD may be the owner’s initial

Rufus


#3

Could you post a picture of the bottoms ?


#4

I am not so happy with these gauges. I must confess I never seen these before.
It is unusual making stamps on the side in a hardened steel gauge.

However it seems to be that the top gauge has an imperial proof marking on the side.

To compare this marking, a picture.

In WW2 the markings were put on the side with acid.

WW1


#5

Thank´s for the response on my questions and pictures. At the moment, I couldn´t post pictures of the bottom of the two new gages. I will try to do this in the evening. What I can say is, that there are centerings from the machining at the bottom and the top, but no markings or inscriptions. They are just flat at the bottom.
Dutch: Why are you not happy with these gauges? From my experience, it is not unusual finding
stamps on the side of such a gauge. In my collection there are several gauges from different countries with stamps on the side.(I will try to post some pictures later on this day). I have also gauges like the one you posted which are stamped with the imperial crown and other proof-markings on the side.


#6

Send them to me Dutch and you won’t have be disappointed by them ever again :D


#7

For over 30 years I had a nice conversation with an old “Waffenmeister” who was working by Polte during WW2 and made these gauges there. He told me how they were made.

The hardened gauge was lacquered, the characters were scratched out with a machine and the gauge was put in acid. After a wile the gauge was cleaned and the lack removed. The writing was visible. If the gauges were ready, the “Wehrmacht abnahme Amt” came by to check the tools.
If everything was OK, they stamped them with there WaA42 bunter.
This means they could rework almost all the gauges they made.

Unfortunately I am not familiar how they were made in the imperial time.
Perhaps @JPeelen can help us.

@451kr asked for a picture of the bottom.
The reason is that in this kind of tools mostly made for arms factories and there is room in bottom of the hardened steel gauge were the firing pin can get in without destroying itself.

The picture is from the base of the imperial gauges

DSC_0008


#8

As promised, the requested pictures and some statements to the gauges.
For 451kr: pictures of the bottom of the two 7,92 gauges.

Most of the gauges have holes or centerings from the machining at the bottom or the top or on both sides. It make sense, to use this holes as free space to prevent damage of the firing-pin. But it depends on the purpose of the gauge. There are gauges which do not have such holes/centerings.
It is, for example, a matter of the stage of manufacture the gauges are applied. See the following picture of .30 Carbine-gauges. The holes are to small for the firing-pin.

Regarding proof- or acceptance-markings on the sidewalls of gauges, I have some examples, which have inscriptions on the sides.

This is a 11mm Gras- and a 8mm Lebel-gauge with markings on the sides.

These are 7,92 Mauser-gauges with imperial markings on the sides.

WK1-2

See also the different base-design to prevent firing-pin-damage.

WK1

A different design with markings on top of the gauges and different base-design.
See also the different designs of WW2-gauges:

Here an interesting comparison of 7,92mm Mauser imperial gauges to a Gauge from 1942. It is interesting to see, that at the 1942-Gauge the bullet-shaped tip is formed after the SS-Bullet compared to the shorter S-Bullet of the earlier gauges.


#9

Alas, I have never seen a gauge from earlier than 1930s.
“Samsonwerk” seems to be Samson Apparatebau, Frankfurt, founded in 1907.


#10

Rainer, an impressive collection of early gauges you got there!


#11

It seems, that the “Gauge-Subject” is a very special one. Whenever I asked for Information or trading- or selling-stuff, there is less response. Or it is restricted on German 9mm Luger or 7,92mm Mauser-gauges. I´m in this subject and I would appeciate all kind of information, manuals, drawings, hardware etc. regarding cartridge-shaped gauges. No matter of the caliber. The only limitation is Small Arms.


#12

I can Show you an 7,9 x 33 gauge.


#13

Here 2 GDR made 12.7x108 gauge sets:


#14

Alex,
are these two sets identical?
Years ago, short after the downfall of the GDR, I got such a set and gave it away. This was, before
I was caught by the “gauge-fever”. Today, I could bite me in the “rear end” for this.

Rainer


#15

Adding to what Dutch posted above concerning 7.9x33 gauges:

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4719

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/6141-30mm-Rarden-armourers-chamber-gauge

30-06-gauge: 30-06 Gauge?

Possible 37mm gauge: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/37mm-gauge-t19235.html


#16

I have always had issue with 'Gages" that are hand or roll stamped on the gaging surface as I know a little about hardening and tempering metals along with heat treating as I studied this as a young fellow from a master, as I had ambitions to be a tool and die maker. Once you do this stamping, you no longer have a concentric gage as you will deform it. Also, what kind of metal stamp are you using to make an impression on Tool Steel? Gages such as these being discussed, are either tool steel or steel that is hardened after the stampings and then ground back to correct dimensions as steel moves after hardening. The martensite and austenite molecules in the metal realigns after heating or forging. I have a close friend that is a retired 37 year MASTER gunsmith/manufacture, not a parts assembler, but makes some of his own parts out of tool steel and forgings he has custom made for himself. He once gave me some of his old gages and I have at least a dozen of my own. I just looked thru them all including modern ones you can buy today from a gunsmith supply house. They are 98% acid marked. 2% are once mild steel what was roll stamped on a recess area and then heat treated and reground for concentricity. Anything other, I would hold suspect.

Joe


#17

a quick shot of some 30-06 tooling


#18

I don`t like the early tools from the weimar time ( with the stamped letters on the side) mention is this tread before.
The original tools from that time are definitely not rol stamped but done the way Dutch mention before. ( With acid )
and this was done before the grinding. The final proof was done with an Electric pen by hand. After hardening of these tools it is impossible to stamp anything with bunters.


#19

Rainer, yes they are, I just happened to have the image on hand and did not crop it to show only one.


#20

I only have four German pre-1946 gauges, and they are all P38 gauges. I have never been able to pick up even a single P08 gauge. Has anyone got one in their junk box???


None of these have markings on the head.

The third from the left also has the “HuK” below the WH like the second from the left.

I don’t understand the P 38 a on the second and third from the left.

I passed up the “Official German Luftwaffe” set below since it was obviously a postwar creation that sold for the price of a nice Luger pistol, but it did have two great gauges I would have liked.

I have data on a lot of other German, 9x19mm gauges none of which I have. I do have quite a few other 9x19mm gauges but all are post 1945 as I recall.

Cheers,
Lew

From Auction Writeup:
> This neat little set was captured by then Staff Sergeant Frank Conway in the town of Lippstadt, Germany in April,1945.Conway provided a handwritten letter which details how he personally liberated this armorers kit from a Luftwaffe training center facility in Lippstadt

P08%20Gauge%20Set-go-nogo

P08%20Gauge%20Set-nogo-RLM