Headstamp on 7 mm Lefaucheux case


#1

I have 7 mm Lefaucheux pinfire case with headstamp AiK.
Please, help me to identify manufacturer.
If it will help, I can make a pictures of this case and headstamp.


#2

AIK = Anton Ignaz Krebs, Gunsmith Vienne, before 1900


#3

Thank you very much!


#4

He had his shop on Wollzeile 3, Wien(Vienna)

This headstamp is known on 7mm and 9mm pinfires as well as some shotshells.


#5

This is from a Austrian government printed manuscript on an overview of trademarks from 1884.

It is loosely translated to:

Anton Ignaz Krebs, producer of ammunition items in Vienna, I. Wollzeile 1-3.
For the production of munitions items.
On 3 April 1884, 10:30AM under Registration No. 3664.


#6

Krebs had shops in Wien and Paris.
I found trace of him from 1874 to 1891
hstp: A.I. Krebs Paris 12 (in center) for PF shotshells
hstp : Paris “sun around the primer“ for CF shotshells

JP


#7

[quote=“jeanpierre”]
hstp : Paris “sun around the primer“ for CF shotshells

JP[/quote]

Thank you for this comment. Could you show a picture with this headstamp? I ask about it, because, as I know SFM also use similar headstamp for shotshells


#8

[quote=“treshkin”][quote=“jeanpierre”]
hstp : Paris “sun around the primer“ for CF shotshells

JP[/quote]

Thank you for this comment. Could you show a picture with this headstamp? I ask about it, because, as I know SFM also use similar headstamp for shotshells[/quote]

I unfortunately don’t have this shotshell !
I found the description on an old advertisment

SFM doesn’t use “sun around primer” for their shotshells.
Where have you seen that ?

jp


#9

[quote=“jeanpierre”]
I unfortunately don’t have this shotshell !
I found the description on an old advertisment

SFM doesn’t use “sun around primer” for their shotshells.
Where have you seen that ?

jp[/quote]

Sorry, I forget how exactly looks SFM headstamp in Catalog 1900. I rememder only word PARIS. Indeed it was the star (not sun) around the primer and PARIS in the star rays


#10

And you have exactly the same hstp with “Liege” instead of “Paris”

(Made by Cartoucherie Russo Belge, which is in fact also SFM)

JP


#11

[quote=“jeanpierre”]And you have exactly the same hstp with “Liege” instead of “Paris”

(Made by Cartoucherie Russo Belge, which is in fact also SFM)

JP[/quote]

Does Cartoucherie Russo Belge was found by SFM? It is a new info for me. Did you have more info about this? Till this evening I was sure that this company was craeted by abstract Belgium and Russian capital.


#12

Here is some more info that may be useful to some:

Regarding Krebs:
Anton Ignaz Krebs was a gunsmith in Vienna operating from at least as early as 1874 until at least 1910. He also operated out of Paris. It is believed that his Austrian shop was closed cWW1.

He was best known for his Lefaucheux cartridges. Some of these utilised a “AIK” headstamp and others a "A.J.KREBS PARIS " hs.

Also noted is a proprietary "A.J.KREBS * WIEN * " hs on 9.75x36R Werndl (A8) of which is believed to have been produced by Keller for Krebs (ref Mötz). (Note: at that time one often wrote the letter “I”, when it was a capital letter, as “J”).

It is believed that Krebs never produced his own ammunition but had it manufactured for him from both Gevelot of Paris and Keller/Hirtenberger of Austria.

The 1890/91 and 1900 Krebs catalogs also listed the Rinesz cartridges.

Regarding Cartoucheries Russo-Belge:,
A 1900 document of S.A. Cartoucheries Russo-Belge describes itself as a May 1899 merger of Cartoucherie Belge, Cartoucherie d’Anderlecht, Cartoucherie Antoine, Cartoucherie Torbeck (Moscow) and Cartoucherie Inaroff (Moscow).
It was absorbed into FN in 1920. I know of no direct ownership by SFM but would be interested to hear of some verified connection.


#13

[quote=“WBD”]Here is some more info that may be useful to some:
Regarding Cartoucheries Russo-Belge:,
A 1900 document of S.A. Cartoucheries Russo-Belge describes itself as a May 1899 merger of Cartoucherie Belge, Cartoucherie d’Anderlecht, Cartoucherie Antoine, Cartoucherie Torbeck (Moscow) and Cartoucherie Inaroff (Moscow).

.[/quote]

Hello !

Your info are right.

  1. I have exactly the same sentence (in french) in my documentation but its is not coming from an internal document of CRB but from an exposition report.

Are you sure your info is an internal document from CRB ???

  1. The Cartoucherie Belge they are talking in this sentence is in fact the Cureghem company.
    Which was belonging to SFM

  2. The first hstps of CRB with “SFM” inside are dated 1901
    (and the first hstps of Cureghem with “SF” inside are dated 1896)

JP


#14

JPG, I believe the source of that reference is an earlier ECRA bulletin which is hard to locate as there is no index (??). However, as you yourself note, it does exist and is the best evidence so far whether it is internal to CRB or not.

1912/13 Cartoucheries Russo-Belge and 1925 Cartoucherie Belge catalogs do not appear to mention SFM anywhere but the 1912/13 catalog does say that FN and Eley are the major shareholders.

I am unsure what significance you are making of “The first hstps of CRB with “SFM” inside are dated 1901 (and the first hstps of Cureghem with “SF” inside are dated 1896)” ? However, as stated before, SFM is likely to have produced ammunition for Cartoucheries Russo-Belge - this doesn’t mean they are part of SFM.

I’m still waiting for some evidence …


#15

[color=#0000FF]hello ![/color]

[quote=“WBD”]JPG, I believe the source of that reference is an earlier ECRA bulletin which is hard to locate as there is no index (??). However, as you yourself note, it does exist and is the best evidence so far whether it is internal to CRB or not.

[color=#0000FF]All the posts in eCRA bulletin start with a number
give me the number and if it is in the british or french bulletin and i will find the post[/color]

1912/13 Cartoucheries Russo-Belge and 1925 Cartoucherie Belge catalogs do not appear to mention SFM anywhere
[color=#0000FF]1925 Cartoucherie Belge is not CRB (see below)[/color]

but the 1912/13 catalog does say that FN and Eley are the major shareholders.
[color=#0000FF]I think you are making a mistake; It is in the Cartoucherie Belge catalogue from 1928 where it is written about FN and Eley
This Cartoucherie Belge is the New Cartoucherie Belge company.
CRB disappeared indeed in 1914 in Belgium and 1917 in Russia[/color]
[color=#0000FF]The New Cartoucherie Belge started in March 1920 in Liège, 615 Rue St.Leonard, with the help of FN and Eley Brothers. It was taken over by FN in 1929.[/color]

I am unsure what significance you are making of “The first hstps of CRB with “SFM” inside are dated 1901 (and the first hstps of Cureghem with “SFM” inside are dated 1896)” ?
[color=#0000FF]12 SFM 12 Bruxelles was dated 1896 for Cureghem[/color]
[color=#0000FF]the hstp 12 /L\ 12/I\ 12 /E\ 12 /G\ 12 /E\ was patented in 1901 for CRB
12 SFM 12 * * * was patented also in 1901 for CRB[/color]

12 SFM 12 Bruxelles was dated 1896 for Cureghem

I’m still waiting for some evidence …[/quote]

[color=#0000FF]ALOUETTE was patented the in 1875 for J.F.Gevelot,in 1890 for SFM, in 1904 for Cart.Russo-Belge
SAPHIR was patented in 1891 for SFM, in 1902 for Cart.Russo-Belge
EXCELSIOR was patented in 1891 for SFM, in 1902 for Cart.Russo-Belge
DIANE was patented in 1883 for S.A. Anderlecht, in 1901 for Cart. Russo-Belge[/color]

However, as stated before, SFM is likely to have produced ammunition for Cartoucheries Russo-Belge - this doesn’t mean they are part of SFM.

[color=#0000FF]The drawings, the trade marks, all proves all these 3 compagnies (Anderlecht, Cureghem, CRB) were parts of SFM
JP[/color]


#16

JPG , thanks for all your responses, corrections and additional info.

Much appreciated.


#17

[quote=“WBD”]JPG , thanks for all your responses, corrections and additional info.

Much appreciated.[/quote]

Hello!
try to give me the reference of the Ecra article
Because I am sure if it is an internal document it is impossible it is written "cartoucherie belge"
thanks
jp


#18

JPG - if I knew the number I would look it up myself as I have most of the ECRA bulletins. That is what I mean when I said there is no Index (that I know of).

You state “1) I have exactly the same sentence (in french) in my documentation but its is not coming from an internal document of CRB but from an exposition report.”

So where did you get your reference from ??

Regarding "Are you sure your info is an internal document from CRB ???"
No I am not sure as I cannot find the original reference and it would have been converted into English anyway so the name of companies may not be exactly correct.

I will keep looking for the reference and in the meantime perhaps you can explain why you do not believe the reference yet state “Your info are right.” ?


#19

WBD,

  1. The document somebody gave to you is an exhibition report (or its translation) of the 1900 international exhibition and it is not an CRB internal document at all.

Here is the original document :

And the translation in english gives your sentence word by word:

S.A. Cartoucheries Russo-Belge is a merger on May 1899 of Cartoucherie Belge, Cartoucherie d’Anderlecht, Cartoucherie Antoine, Cartoucherie Torbeck (Moscow) and Cartoucherie Inaroff (Moscow).

Your source is not reliable and affabulated about an internal document of CRB.

  1. Why would I be very much interested if it was an internal document of CRB ?
    Because I know the Cartoucherie Belge was at the beginning located in 1896 in Cureghem les Bruxelles.
    I have the proof of that.
    After they moved to Liege in 1898. I know that but I have no proof .

Therefore a document of CRB would be of great importance !

  1. I show here the original document giving you a little bite more details


jp