Headstamped 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard by AEP

Hello John, after reading your great book on the 9x23 cartridges, I think you may be interested in this one. This is a headstamped example of a 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard made by Anciens Etablissements Pieper. The marking is very faint and almost unnoticeable and these are mostly considered “unheadstamped” to the naked eye.

AEP

Total weight is 200.2 gr, primer is flat brass and bullet jacket is cupro-nickel. The case has a plain cannelure starting at 6,05 mm from the case mouth. Dimensions are:

Total lenght: 33,11-33,12 mm
Case lenght: 23,02-23,05 mm
Rim diameter: 9,74-9,75 mm
Head diameter: 9,87-9,87 mm
Neck diameter: 9,68-9,70 mm
Bullet diameter: 8,95-8,96 mm
Rim thickness: 1,25-1,28 mm
Groove diameter: 8,38-8,41 mm
Groove lenght: 2,33-2,35 mm

Fede - Thanks. This has been pointed out to me, but this is the best photo of these astonishingly poorly stamped rounds. I looked in my collection and all my dupes when I first found out about it, to no avail. I’ll admit I have never looked closely at “familiar” looking unheadstamped 9 x 23s, which are a confusion in their own right.

Great round. Congratulations. I will print this out for my copy of the book, in case of a second edition some day - not likely, but then who knows.

Here I show a box of 9mm Bergmann-Bayard by AEP with really NO headstamp.
Even by 300times macro I couldnt find any sign of a headstamp.
I think, ist quite a rare box, as it states for Bergmann Bayard Pistol Modell of 1912 !!
M1912 was the Pieper internal Modell number for the civilian Version of the 1908 Military model.
Funny that it shows on the front the description “pour Pistolet de Guerre” (means war pistol), but stamping the 1912 on the side Label (which means the civilian Modell 1908) and an extra rubberstamp 1912 on the opposite…
From the civilian Modell where only about 1000 pieces made…

Peter



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Having written a book on the 9 x 23 mm cartridges, including the Bergmann-Bayard round, I found Peter’s observation very interesting. While I am not sure I would label the box shown (great photos, by the way, Peter!) as rare, since I have two of them myself and have seen at least several others in my research on that caliber, it is certainly scarce. My two boxes differ only in the application of what appears to be a lot number, stamped right on the top label, “1091” (there may be missing elements due to poor stamping, as their are other illegible parts to the stamp showing), over some of the box-top markings. Neither of my boxes have the extra stamping of “1912.” on the side of the lid of the box, but unfortunately, one of them is missing the lower portion of one end of the box, and since since that marking also appears to be handstamped, and in the same tone of purple ink that the “lot number” on my box used, it is possible it was on the missing portion. My second box clearly never had that marking. It has no extra stamped markings of any kind. I will attempt scans of the boxes here. This stamp is highly significant, as I believe it is almost certainly representative of the actual date of manufacture of that specific box and ammunition, and not a repetition of the “Model 1912” marking, which already appears on two side of the box.

The box already shown is in much better condition than mine. Thanks for posting it Peter, and for your astute observation of the date and its importance.

The AEP cartridges can easily be mistaken, out of the box, from some made with no headstamp in Denmark for their 1910 and 1910/21 Bergmann-Bayard pistols. The only differ in the width of the extractor groove and bevel. Otherwise, they are quite identical.

What makes me somewhat ashamed is that while I was fully aware of the “Model 1912” appellation appearing below the picture of the pistol on the box side, I never gave it any thought, while Peter has explained the importance of that marking. I didn’t even mention it in my book.

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John Moss

John,
You wrote: “I have never seen or heard of a 9 mm Bergmann Bayard round from Anciens Etablissments Pieper with a headstamp, even though an early picture (a drawing, not a photo) in an AEP Catalog shows a cartridge with their headstamp.”
What is it that Fede shows at the top of this post? Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Dan

Dan, this is crazy, but this time I do not claim responsibility for my apparent stupidity. This thread when I was work on it did not show anything until Forensics posting of the box labels. That is, it would not scroll up any farther than that. I had forgotten about the earlier thread beginning with Fede, so thought nothing off it.

Once again, I will delete the entry or the part thereof that contains what you quoted. Thanks for not letting this go by. I appreciate, and I mean just that, anyone pointing out my many gaffs to me, so they can be corrected.

You guys will have to keep this old man with a lousy computer and a dull mind honest. Thanks.

John M.

Thanks John,
I just noticed, that the round Fede posted has a smooth case cannelure, as does mine. And Bill Woodin’s did not. NOTE: I corrected this below. Bill Woodin’s did have the smooth cannelure, just not the fine line above it that mine has. Bill said his headstamp was very weak like mine, and the one that Fede posted at the top of this topic. Fede also told me in an old e-mail, that he didn’t know if they were scarce, or if nobody looked at them that close! I have yet to see a good headstamp on a 9x23, (and neither had Bill), and it would be nice to see which box the weak headstamps came in…
Thanks,
Dan

Here the Counterpart box from Denmark, of Model 1910.
Also without headstamp. I Show besides the difference in extractorgroove/cut…

Peter

Forensic - another great box. Earliest Danish box I have seen. Someday I’ll have to come visit you - when you are not home, and at two O’clock in the morning! :-) I’ll bring a big sack.

John M.

Dan - can you clarify your state about Bill Woodin’s not having a smooth case cannelure? Are you talking about an otherwise identical cartridge known to be Belgian or Danish, or an unknown one, or one with no headstamp with perhaps a bullet ogive not so pointed, etc.?? There is a Spanish round with no headstamp, but it has a slightly more rounded bullet tip. Or, is it one specifically headstamped “A E P.” That would be a blockbuster, if there are actually two different variations of the “A E P”-headstamped 9 x 23 mm BB round.

Sorry to be confused, but Bill had a whole lot of 9 x 23 rounds, both BB and Steyr, which are not actually interchangeable by design. Sometimes specifications allow the generally larger BB rounds to fit a Steyr chamber, but by design, they should not.

Hi John,
I checked the old mail, and Bills did have the smooth cannelure. It just didn’t have the light scratch above it, that mine has. Thanks for making me clarify that! These are the weak A E P headstamped rounds.
AEP%202

Dan

Dan - thank you. I am glad to hear you ave an A E P round. One day perhaps I can find one, but it is great that this headstamp is verified through more than round, regardless who has it. The information is more valuable than the cartridge. If yours has a stronger headstamp than the one Fede posted, a picture of it would be nice too.

John Moss

I have a 25 round box like the one you show but my box is red and missing the top. The question is does the Model 1912 refer to the pistol or the cartridge. The style of Bergmann pistol shown on the side of the box was the same as the those furnished to the Spanish and the first style manufactures by AEP.
Jim Alley
(jalley)

the civilian pistol was called mod 1912 and only about 1000+ where made…

To all involved I have a DWM round with the the stamp (DWM 456b)
it was made in Spain any meaning to this one??
Sherryl

A 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard with headstamp K DWM K 456B would be made in Germany, not Spain. It is a commercial headstamp, and some were sold in/to Spain, as a Spanish-language box label is known, designating the cartridges within as “DWM Cartuchos 9 m/m Bergmann para modelo reglamentario.” Similar 25-round boxes with the designation “No. 456b/247 Kal. 9 mm” are known from the Karlsruhe Factory. This headstamp is found with and without serifs on the letters. There is also one that has a trinomial headstamp of simply “D W M” with no case number, factory initials, or caliber designation at all.

This caliber was also made later at the Berlin-Borsigwalde factory of DWM, heastamped “B DWM B 456B.”

A nickel-plated dummy round was made with the headstamp “K DWM K 456A,” with letters having serifs. In our study of this caliber, we have found no ball round with this headstamp, although the DWM case register shows this number as the “Patronenhülse Kal. 9mm Bergmann (Bayard) Thieme & Edeler, Eibar.” However, it also shows case number 456A1 as simply “Exerzierpatrone Kal. 9mm.”

Finally, and said to be of DWM manufacture is the headstamp “STAR 456C” on an ordinary ball cartridge. The city of Eibar was the firearms manufacturing center of Spain. While some report that this cartridge was made for the firm of Bonifacio Echeverria, Eibar, likely because their brand for pistols was “STAR,” it is more likely that it was a contract for the Star Trust Corporation, a Basque firm also in Eibar. Whether or not the two companies had a business relationship is not known to me The DWM case type register shows this “456C” cartridge having a case cannelure; however, actual specimens do not have that feature.

The last DWM Catalog in our possession still list the 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard cartridge as available, under the description “Caliber 9, 456B Colt-Browning, Star, Bergmann-Bayard” and mentioned it could be supplied on strips (likely what we would call stripper clips, or chargers). It is presumed that these would be for the Bergmann-Bayard, and therefore would hold six rounds.

The original DWM number 456, sans letter-suffix, was likely the second headstamp, following “* D.M. * K.”, for the 9 mm Bergmann Mars cartridge, and for the early Bergmann-Mars pistol. However, it is found with over-all cartridge lengths of 1.330" - 1.339", and may represent a continuing development of the cartridge. Some K DWM K 456 cartridges, with no suffix letter on the headstamp, fall into the case measurements of a standard Bergmann-Bayard cartridge.

Reference: “The 9 x 23 mm Rimless Pistol Cartridges,” a Woodin Laboratory study compiled by John L. Moss and published by GIG Concepts Inc.

John Moss

Thank you John for your explanation in depth I will try to make a mental
note of things
Sherryl

Forensic, the BB box from AEP appears that it has an AEP label over red color label. The red label boxes I have which show the various automatic pistols on the box side have Fabrique Nationale D’Armes De Guerre (SA), Herstal-Liege (Belgique.) labels. AEP literature shows a picture of their cartridge making department and the names of the cartridge making machinery Manufactures.
Any of our members know if FN supplied AEP with 9mm BB for any of their civilian or military pistol contracts?

jalley

Hi

no, there is no underlabel to see…
The reddish Color on one side only cames from the reddish ink of a sticker placed on this side, which discolored the undersite paper as this sticker was removed…
AEP had own production facilities…
But I will recheck´at the Military musee of brussels in August…
I will anyway also “kill” a cartridge from this box to look inside…maybe gives clue…
Peter

Jalley,

after your remarks I got courious…and have slowly removed parts of the overlabel…

and volia, there was a red underlabel…but NOT FN.
It also Shows the Trademark of AEP, the rider on horse, and the 1912 pistol…
On overcluing this older Label, they just turned the boxtop, and you can now see, parts of the lower part showing the 1912 pistol, and the upper part shows the AEP-Trademark…
Why they overlabeled the red paperlabel of their own, I do not know…but it may was forced by FN, as their red labeled boxes of that time may where protected by FN (like todays Colors of Telekom Germany, the Sparkassen-red of german banc a.s.o.)

I remember, to have seen this on Boxes of LeHavre Rimfires, which where red and got overlabeled with blue (and than again with creampaper), as the blue was protected by RWS at that time…

Thanks for the hint…now I have “destroyed” a bit the old AEP Box, but got at least the confirmation, that the underlabel is also AEP…;.))

Peter