Hello all! My 127 mm

General Ammunition Discussion
#1

Hello everyone…I’m new to the boards…But been a collector of sorts of all types of military ammo and weapons sence i was young…My dad picked up this shell when i was a 10 years old at a local auction house.He put a dollar bid on it and did not want to really win it…and did!!..It seems to me to be some kinda training round to teach them how to load and set a fuze.“i think”…It is stamped empty on the brass band and is stamped dummy over the original fuze markings…It says m79 mechnical timed fuze…Only date on shell “i think mite be a date” says 1943…I been having a ruff time over the years tring to find one online just like it…“or one all together”…It use to be green…Like a naval round…It does not have a crimping band for a brass shell casing…Is this the type you have to pack powder behind like a naval 16 inch? I was thinking it could be a traning round for the old coast guns in ww2…Well thought i would post it here…Im sure you all know…Would be neat to know what guns it went too…Navy…Army or whatever…It use to be green…I had to paint it black so it would not rust…the old paint was falling off…It seems to be a bit bigger and heavier than most 5 inch shells i look up…Its about 50-60 pounds…Figured this is just the place to learn more about it:)

any picks you want to see of it…just ask and ill snap away…i made a small demo vid on it too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s2k_Xhg0-0

#2

Hi, welcome to the forum. This is not a 5" but a 120 mm M15 dummy projectile for the Army 120 mm M1 AA gun and it is assembled with a M79 dummy fuze. This gun is loaded with separated ammunition (not separate-loading) which uses the M24 case loaded with the M15 propelling charge. Regards, Fede.

#3

Fede

I always thought “separated” and “separate-loading” were the same thing? As opposed to “semi-fixed” which has a loose fitting projectile in a case that is loaded in one operation.

Ray

#4

Side of the case says M73 4.7 INCH? So ya you are right…not quite 5 incher

#5

Ray, separated ammunition uses a propelling charge contained in a primed case sealed with a closing plug. The case mouth does not fit over the base of the projectile as in semifixed ammunition.

#6

Pick of the side of the shell says m73?..Has M-79 stamped on fuse…Along with FA and some x’ed out numbers too…Glad i come here…I’m no expert on this kinda round.

#7

So they use this round for some kinda training? or test firing for accuracy?

#8

I just made these scans. Also, coincidentally, note that the black colour is correct for this dummy projectile.

#9

It was meant for training using a M13 dummy propelling charge.

To avoid confusion, I should have mentioned that the original designation of this gun was 4.7-inch M1 and if your projectile was made in 1943 that would be the correct designation to use.

#10

Fede

In the USN of my time, we had only three types of artillery ammunition rounds. Fixed, Semifixed, and Separate-Loading. The propelling charge in a Separate-Loading round could be in a bag (or bags) or in a case.

Interestingly, the propellant in a Semifixed round was in a bag (or bags) inside a case.

Mostly a matter of semantics I suppose.

Ray

#11

It doesn’t look as if the driving band is machined down flush in the photos which it should be for the dummy.

gravelbelly

#12

I will post some more pics…Thanks for the info guys…Too me it seems like a live round that was turned into a dummy…The fuze has alot of x’s stamped over it…and they crossed out alot of stuff on it…and then stamped dummy later on…I am not sure about the date or age “for sure” I found some markings on it when i took what i thought was original green paint off…said" was hard to read" 1943…but that could be just a serial for all i know…i repainted it with motor paint just to save it years ago.

#13

I noted that the body wasn’t originally painted black and that the rotating band is not machined, but the M79 dummy fuze was authorized to be used in the M15 dummy projectile only, which in turn was made using an inert loaded M73 shell. I guess we could call this an “irregular” M15 dummy or an inert M73 HE shell and both would be correct.

#14

Thanks again everyone…Is this the same round and gun they talking about? Sounds like it was replaced by the cheaper made 4.5 british
…Some more pics of the Fuze…Too me it looks like it was restamped and made into a dummy round…One guy told me it was a pretty importaint tool for the gun…said this shell was used to calibrate the fire control - they ran it through the gun and then checked to see if it had been timed correctly. It is full of putty so it is the correct weight.

Found this on wiki…sound right?

The development resulted in 4.7 inch Gun M1922E on Carriage M1921E. Due to lack of funding, the design never reached production.

In 1939 the program was restarted; the renewed design, designated 4.7 inch Gun T3, was ready by early 1940; it utilized the same carriage as the concurrently developed 155 mm howitzer. At this stage, the army decided to change the weapon to use the British 4.5 inch ammunition. The modified gun was standardized in April 1941 as 4.5 inch Gun M1 on Carriage M1

fuze.jpg800×408

#15

It has a lot number on it too…Ill try to get a pick of it…what is the lot number for?

#16

The M79 dummy fuze was specially manufactured or assembled from burned out ot rejected parts of sevice fuzes, like the M61A1 found on this projectile.

The information you have found in Wikipedia is for 4.5" M1 field gun, but this projectile is for the 4.7" M1 anti-aircraft gun (later designated 120 mm M1 Gun).

#17

Thanks Fede…Now im a little confused with the Wiki one

In 1939 the program was restarted; the renewed design, designated 4.7 inch Gun T3, was ready by early 1940; it utilized the same carriage as the concurrently developed 155 mm howitzer. At this stage, the army decided to change the weapon to use the British 4.5 inch ammunition. The modified gun was standardized in April 1941 as 4.5 inch Gun M1 on Carriage M1.

The production started in September 1942 and continued until February 1944

So was all turned into 4.5? Or this diff gun converted into a anti aircraft M1?

The 120 mm Gun M1 was the United States Army’s standard super-heavy anti-aircraft gun, complementing the smaller and more mobile M2 90 mm gun in service. Its maximum altitude was about 60,000 ft (18,000 m), which garnered it the nickname the stratosphere gun.

#18

Not to make it more difficult but wasn’t there a 120mm tank gun which used the same ammunition (except for the time fuzes)?

#19

badger351, the 4.7" and 4.5" inch field guns are not related in any way to the 4.7"/120 mm M1 AA gun. You can search for both guns in Wikipedia but keep in mind that these articles are in most cases full of mistakes.

Alex, yes, the separated ammunition used with the 120 mm M58 gun mounted in the M103 heavy tank used a plugged cartridge case with same dimensions -designated M109 and hard to find- but the projectiles are different. Also, the M109 case uses the M59 electric or M67 percussion-electric primers.