Help ID cartridges- spiral rolled steel about .56 caliber


#1

I have been asked to find out what these cartridges are. I have no idea.
Can anyone ID these?
Thanks!


#2

Hi John
.43 Spanish Philippine made. relatively uncommon, & found in endless variations as all are home made.
See you in a couple of weeks?
Pete


#3

I agree they look like the Philippine hand-made .43 Spanish. However, .56 Calibre is quite a lot larger if it’s an accurate measurement.


#4

Owner provided photo of caliper in place reading .556", much larger than I would expect for .43 Spanish.

Any other possibilities anyone would like to suggest?


#5

I have no measurements for the caliber close at hand, but would that cartridge fit a a 577 Snider chamber?


#6

John M.,

Case length is somewhat longer than that of the .577 Snider, but…

Perhaps a wild guess, but maybe a 14.7x58R Schneider missing the copper base cup and paper? Case length and projectile diameter are about right but rim and base diameters are small on the items shown. Does anyone know how the Schneider cartridge was assembled, (perhaps using rolled steel under paper with a copper cup holding it all together)? How is the rolled steel attached to the base on the mystery cartridges?

Dave


#7

TO ALL OF YOU HAVING AN INTEREST IN THIS SUBJECT:

MOST OF WHAT I’M GOING TO MENTION IS SPECULATION - SOME OF IT IS KNOW AS FACTUAL - IT ALWAYS HELPS TO HAVE SOME FACTS WHEN SPECULATING.

THE WAR WAS FOUGHT BETWEEN THE PHILIPPINE GOVERNMENT ARMY BACKED BY U.S.A. TROOPS AND THE NATIVE PHILIPPINE PEOPLES, NAMELY MOROS, THAT DID NOT AGREE WITH THE NEW GOVERNMENT. THE FIRST SIDE HAD THE BEST? MILITARY WEAPONS THEN AVAILABLE. THE OTHER SIDE HAD A LOT OF MACHETES, AXES, SPEARS, AND A WIDE VARIETY OF FIREARMS THAT INCLUDED MATCHLOCKS, FLINTLOCKS, AND A LOT OF RECENTLY MODERN BREECH LOADING RIFLES IN A VARIETY OF CALIBERS. THEIR AMMUNITION SUPPLY WAS LIMITED TO WHAT THEY COULD STEAL OR FABRICATE. THEIR AMMUNITION MANUFACTURING ARSENAL WAS A FIRE PIT IN THE JUNGLE. I SUSPECT THEY MADE CARTRIDGES FOR FIREARMS OTHER THAN THOSE THAT CHAMBERED THE .43 SPANISH CARTRIDGE. THIS MAY EXPLAIN THE MANY, AND NOT MINOR, DIFFERENCES IN CARTRIDGE CASE MEASUREMENTS. PERHAPS THE FIREARM THE SUBJECT CARTRIDGES WERE FABRICATED FOR DIDN’T RECEIVE A LOT OF USE AND PERHAPS THAT IS WHY WE HAVE THEM TO STUDY TODAY.

PERHAPS SOMEONE CAN LOCATE A LIST OF THE FIREARMS CAPTURED FROM THE MOROS AND PERHAPS THE LIST WILL HAVE A GUN THAT WOULD CHAMBER THESE OVERSIZED CARTRIDGES.


#8

John…

Is it possible that some of the dimensions given are incorrect?..I ask because, if the rim dimension is .650", and the head dimension is .625", yet the rim protrusion beyond the head appears to be about .05", which would give a head dimension of about .55". Then considering the taper of the case, the mouth dimension would be considerably less than .565", maybe down to where it should be for a .43 Spanish Reformado…

Randy


#9

Randy,

Good eye for scale!

John S.

If the case length and overall length are correct measurements, the background grid is likely 1/4". Taking quick measurements off my screen with the image all zoomed up, that gives rim dia. =.668", head dia. = .547", merger of case mouth/projectile dia. = .467". That would fairly well put it in the range of the Reformado as Pete first suggested given some allowance for measuring from the image closer than the scale (bias down about .025").

Very interesting cartridges!

Dave


#10

These variations are well known and are documented as such. see Hoyem The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition Vol 2 page 251 where he shows three variations.
His {C} example has the H.P. White collection number of 14134 engraved in it & they also listed it as such.


#11

I was contacted by the owner of these & so am posting two photos of my variations to help him understand.
Note the 2nd from the left has a 2-piece head & is inside primed (go figure), the one with the split washer for a rim seems to have been made from a 30-40 Krag brass case & the brass case on the right seems to be drawn but with a insert for the head. Bullet diameters range from .412" to .456". Rims range from .654" to .593"
I’ve had some of these in past sales & I’m sure those were different in some way or other than mine.

A lovely bunch for those of you who collect Swiss ammunition! (Tim, not knowing you, Swiss ammo is beautifully made stuff, just in case you didn’t get this joke / comment)