Help ID Israeli 7mm cartridge


#1

Head measures .446" Case length is 1.990" bullet diameter is .284" Head stamp is dated 3-64. 7.62x51 NATO round for comparison. Thanks, JH


#2

Has to be a reformed case, never heard of any Israeli 7mm production.


#3

Could be Jon, but it was in with a bunch of acid cleaned battle field ammo we are pulling down along with all types of ammo & calibers from that era. The cases head on this would have had to be swaged to that diameter because if it were turned, you would hit air! It appears original in all respects & Bill W. is hot on the trail. I will let you know what he finds out. JH


#4

Interesting. Whatever the sources of the various batches of Israeli “battle field ammo” that I have seen, some truly odd and interesting items have been found. Keep us informed. Most of what I’ve seen seems to have come out of IMI/IWI manufacturing or testing facilities, captured weapons depots, and armorers’ discard bins.


#5

The head diameter of .446 and the thinness of the rim relative to the 308 looks like a 35 Remington. Maybe it was a 35 Rem that was reformed into taking a 284 bullet, hence the neck appearance? Seems like a typical thing for a Wildcat try-out load (necking down a case to take a smaller / lighter bullet), but I don’t find any reference to a 284-35 load online anywhere. There is the reverse, which is a “35-284”, but that is a 35 bullet in a blown-out neck on 284 brass.


#6

According to stevespages.com/page8d.htm , .35 Remington head diameter is 0.460" and case length 1.920"

Does the headstamp offer any clue?

Do any known 7mm FMJ bullets have the same cannelure-to-tip dimension? The only 7mm projo in my collection looks longer in that respect.


#7

Might it be 6.5 Carcano necked up to 7mm? Do the Israelis produce 6.5 Carcano ammo?


#8

never heard of any Israelian 6.5 carcano production.


#9

If “3-64” in the headstamp means March 1964, then it was made a long time ago.

The head diameter and case length are virtually the same as for 6.5 Carcano, which also has such a thin rim.


#10

The 6,5 x 54 Mannlicher schoenauer has the same base diam too.

Extractor groove seems too large for a Carcano round


#11

Am out of my element here, so will just make a suggestion for a possible lead. Israel used the FN-FAL rifle in at
least two forms. Could it be a copy, or their version of any of the series of 7 mm cartridges tried in Belgium, England and Canada for the FN-FAL type rifles? Just a thought in exploring other avenues, which seem more likely to me than 6.5 Carcano or Mannlicher necked up.


#12

John, it occurred to me, too, that the Israelis might have been trying to further develop the .270 British (aka 7x46), which I think had the same head diameter, but was 4-5mm shorter and had a shorter, less streamlined bullet.

The reason for thinking that this 7mm round may have been made by modifying 6.5 Carcano or 6.5 Mannlicher cases is because altering an existing case is typically how initial prototyping is done.

Stan


#13

Based on the neck bulge, it looks like a garage project to me. Bill


#14

Bill, - the problem with it being a garage project, which was my first thought also, is that it has a correct Israeli
headstamp with dimensions that don’t match any of the rifle rounds they are known to have made with military
headstamps - ie: .303, 7.9 x 57, 7.62 x 51, .30-06, etc. Especially the rim and head.

So, that would leave the question of “if a garage project, what cartridge case was it made from?”


#15

John: JH has already suggested it’s swaged from a cartridge case with a larger base. I don’t know if .020 in. reduction is reasonable or not, but if so and if the headstamp is known from Israeli 7.62 m/m, then that could be the parent case. It doesn’t seem to me that this cartridge represents mid-1960s ideas; to me it’s more like early 1950s. I think it smacks of someone with good machine-shop skills and too much time on his hands. Jack


#16

Personally, I’d be even more interested in learning:

  • Why was it made?

  • What was it fired in?


#17

Hi Jack, I actually do NOT think it was swagged from a larger case. The kind of distortion that moving that much brass inward is substantial. The head stamp, primer pocket, etc would become very distorted. The ring crimped primer that is correct for the period would not have survived such an operation in my opinion. Also, if you look closely, the head stamp is positioned in proportion to the smaller diameter head stamp, not the same as the 51mm NATO case. JH


#18

JH: I misunderstood your intent in your second post above. If the bullet can’t be matched with any known production 7 m/m type the cartridge might be for real. It’s awfully interesting whatever it is. Jack


#19

Buffalo Arms swages down .30 Remington to make 5.45x39 brass cases. That’s well over 0.020" reduction.

Except for one minor detail: The rim is unusually thin for 7.62x51 cases.

That seems quite likely. Then again, there is currently an effort underway by Cris Murray to make a very similiar cartridge (7x46 UIAC) for a lightweight machine gun, to reduce the machine gunner’s carry load while delivering performance comparable to 7.62x51 MMGs. The Israelis have done their share of developing improved infantry small arms. Might it be this was an official experiment with the same purpose?


#20

Many years ago, (25+??) Bill Woodin and Dave Andrews were in my garage looking at German Platz 33 blanks. I showed Bill some German WW1 8mm head stamped cartridges that were loaded with 30/40 primers, blue annulus (SmE ball) and remarked, " if these are real, I have never seen them before". Bill admonished me and said “Just because you have never seen something before, does not mean it does not exist. It just means we have not seen it before.” I try to always remember that. JH