Help identifying these 9mm French boxes


#1

I was told that these two boxes contained the French short range cartridges with the dark blue plastic/rubber bullet. My two headstamps are “MEN 94 9” and “9MM SF 91”. I received these boxes seperately from any cartridges. I would like to confirm what they contained.

As I read the label it looks like they are ordinary ball loads that are reloadable-ie Boxer primed.

Any help appreciated.

Cheers, Lew


#2

Lew - I got mine empty also. The French are usually quite specific on the loadings printed on the label, and I don’t think they would print the labels for Ball Ordinaire if they were going to contain short range loads with synthetic material bullets. That said, hope you get a real answer, as I would love to know myself about them. There are sure a lot of French 9mm boxes considering that other than the VN era rounds, you don’t see much of their ammunition around anymore. (I am not talking about right now - I don’t know if any factory in France that is still open is actually making 9 mm anymore. “LM” was the last, I think - or maybe “SF.”

John Moss


#3

[quote=“Lew”]I was told that these two boxes contained the French short range cartridges with the dark blue plastic/rubber bullet.
As I read the label it looks like they are ordinary ball loads that are reloadable-ie Boxer primed.

Lew[/quote]
I would be very surprised if the box would have contained ctges different than the ones described on the label
jp


#4

These boxes were for ball cartridges use by the french Gendarmerie Nationale. After use, the cases could be reloaded with a Gendarmerie home made system for short range training, before the FX from IVI was adopted.

Domi


#5

domi,

Thanks!!! That explaines it. The dark blue plastic loads were probably reloads, dumped into the same boxes.

Now it makes sense.

Cheers,

Lew


#6

Hi Lew,
Can you post a pic of the cartridge?

Domi


#7

Here is a photo of the cartridge I was told came in this box. This is the MEN case. The SF case is identical in appearance.


#8

Thank you Lew.
I don’t know this one and how made it. It seems to be not a Gendarmerie reload.
Domi


#9

Domi, Based on your comments and other emails I have received, these boxes appear to be Boxer primed ball ammunition. I found a box in the items I haven’t yet cataloged with the headstamp “S SF 83 9” exactly like that across the tip (I believe this is the police format for the headstamp). The box was dated '83 and the case was boxer primed. The MEN box pictured above is clearly a French contract.

Does anyone know anything about the blue plastic short-range load I pictured? it comes with both the SF and MEN headstamps.

Cheers,

Lew


#10

Like Domi said, these 2 boxes contained “ball” ammunitions (FMJ), used by the French Gendarmerie before they used QD1.
Cases were then refilled with a SPEER black plastic cylindrical ball (cal. .38) and used with PA Mle 1950 MAC or MAS pistols.
Concerning the one with the blue rubber ball, it is a test by MEN (new or fired cases, with new or fired balls) for the French Gendarmerie when they were looking for a short range system for the “PA-MAS G1” (Beretta 92F) pistol. After numerous tests, it is ultimately the Canadian FX sytem which was chosen.
And some pictures of ammunition test for MAS G1.




#11

Lew - want to buy my 9mm Collection!? Just kidding, but recent photos of rounds show me that with over 4,000, and not even collecting dates, I don’t even have a good start of this caliber!

Thanks for posting those pictures, JMG. I thought I had a good selection of the various French short-range rounds they triesd. I do not!!!

John Moss


#12

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Lew - want to buy my 9mm Collection!? Just kidding, but recent photos of rounds show me that with over 4,000, and not even collecting dates, I don’t even have a good start of this caliber!

Thanks for posting those pictures, JMG. I thought I had a good selection of the various French short-range rounds they triesd. I do not!!! Nice to know what really is out there though. These kinds of pictures are very valuable for that reason.

John Moss[/quote]


#13

Conclusion : The ctges found (or told as coming from these boxes) have nothing to do with these boxes
jp


#14

Thanks to everyone for a great thread and lots of help. I suspected they were just Boxer primed ball loads. Looks like that is what they were.

JMG, many thanks for your post. The range of short range cartridges being tested by the French police is impressive. I think I have the ones in the top photo. Note that the two dark cases are unheadstamped plastic cases I believe. The white bullet may be a biodegradable plastic bullet—but that is just a guess.

The second photo was a real surprise. Looks like two subcaliber adaptor chambers (beside the British gray plastic TARP) that I had never encountered before. The one with a Yellow bullet is also a total surprise as are some of the others!

I appreciata all the help!

Cheers,

Lew