Help in ID of a bullet

Just found a bullet. It’s about 11+ mm. It was found in northern Israel, in a war/training area from the beginning of the 20th century untill the late 50’s. Can anyone help me ID it? In the last picture I’ve put it next to a 9 mm for scale. I known that I don’t have a lot of information but I hope you can help

looks like a 45ACP bullet

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Thank you, do you have any idea how old is it and what is the weapon?

The .45 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge (commercial name) or Cartridge, Ball Model of 1911 (military name) was mainly used in the U.S. Model 1911 .45 pistol or the various models of the Thompson submachine guns. All of which were widely used in WW2, and probably by Israeli forces as well.

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Would not the right hand twist land marks suggest this was fired in something other than a Colt government model? Jack

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Thank you very much! Makes sense

What do you mean? (I’m not an expert, I just recently started to collect them)

Nadav: Notice that in your .45 bullet the grooves engraved by the rifling tend from the left to the right as they move upward. This is referred to as “right hand twist” and is commoner than “left hand.” The Colt firm conventionally used left hand twist, so a Colt 1911 pistol and its various subtypes produce left hand twist markings on a fired bullet. The likeliest arm in .45 auto caliber in the period this bullet was fired would be the Thompson sub machinegun. Jack

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Thank you very much 😁

Remember that Colt and Smith and Wesson Model 1917 Revolvers were also used by the US military during WWII, not just WWI. These fire the .45 M1911 cartridge using two, three “half-moon” clips.

Sadly, I am not familiar with the direction or rate of twist in the barrels of either of these Revolvers. Also not sure of that of the Thompson M1921 and 1928 SMGs, or for that matter, in the M3 and M3A1 SMGs, which were used in WWII, and after. Some added possibilities there. Wish I could help pin-point it, but I cannot.

John Moss

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Very few Thompsons were ever in Haganah/IDF service. Most notably, Ben-Gurion’s personal security staff used them. The most-likely source of your .45 bullet was British pre-1948 occupation troops.
Nadav, how far north was the training area? I used to find lots of interesting items in the Juarah/Ein HaShofet/Menashe area.

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First I would like to express my congratulation to Jack for noting the direction of twist on the bullet. Sharp eyes indeed.
.45 ACP twist rate as of field manuals for M1911A1 pistol and M3 submachine gun is 16 inches.
I would be very much suprised if Colt for the M1917 deviated from the rule: Colt left-hand twist, right-hand cylinder rotation – Smith & Wesson right-hand twist, left-hand cylinder rotation.

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Peelen - certainly that is absolutely correct about cylinder rotation of the M1917 Colts and Smith and Wessons. I am a dunce when it comes to rates and direction of twist, as it is a subject of little interest to me as a student of small arms (History oriented, not technically oriented). I have owned both Models of 1917 though, so am totally familiar with their operation. You called it perfectly, as usual. Thank you.

John Moss

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Thank you ☺️ I’ve found it next to Beit shean

If you can post the number of lands and grooves and also measurements for the widths of the land and groove impressions, I can give you a list of possible firearms.

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I don’t have precise measurement tools.
The grooves are just below 2 mm wide. The space between grooves is about 4 mm. In total there are 6 grooves

Rather confusingly, because the lands and grooves relate to the firearm, on a bullet the engraved part relates to the land, and the raised part relates to the groove. The Thompson SMG was ‘six right’. Below illustrates a ‘left hand’ beside a ‘right hand’ twist on .45 ACP bullets for comparison.

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So the grooves are the raised parts on the bullet? I didn’t know that, thanks 😊
So you believe it was fired from a Thompson SMG?

It means you can eliminate the Colt 1911 pistol and Colt M1917 revolver as they’re both left twist, but you’d need more detail to say whether it was fired from a Thompson, if that helps.

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It would be fair to say, I think, that at this point that the leading suspect would be the Thompson, given the arms that would have likely been available there in the period 1935 to 1950 or so. A comparison would, of course, be necessary. Jack

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