Help in identifing European shotshell


#1

I received this in a batch of generously donated shells and I have never seen one quite like this. I don’t know much about European shells but I think this is German. I know the pictures are poor but I’d appreciate translation and ID. It’s one of the most decorative shells I’ve ever had so think I’ll keep it for awhile.





#2

Well, I will probably screw this up, but here goes:

Rauchloses Jagdpulver - Smokeless hunting powder

Waldmanns Heil! - Hail Waldmanns! (Heil can also mean heal, like “heal an illness” but it doesn’t seem to make sense there.

Rottweiler Pulverfabriken - Rottweiler Powder Factory. (Rottweil was a brand name associated, I believe, with Rheinisch Westfälische Sprengstoff A.-G. (R.W.S.)

Köln - Rottweil Actiengesellschaft - Cologne (name of City)-Rottweil Incorporated (A.-G. is a form of incorporation. Their may be a better English translation of it than just “Incorporated” that better describes the type of incorporation. I don’t know what it would be, though.

Sinoxid (on primer) - the Trademark name for a non-corrosive primer from R.W.S.

Vereinigte - (I can’t read everything on that line) A type of association. for example, the name United States in German is Vereinigte Staaten.

This is a pre-war German shotgun Shell likely made in the 1930s from the writing on it.

Hope this is of some help. I am not a German Scholar, to say the least!


#3

Waidmanns heil is a kind of salute or tribute to game that has been killed. A European tradition. Others will have a direct translation but this at least heads the discussion in the right direction.


#4

Hi Shotmeister.

John is very correct with his year.
It was produced in 1935.
I know this because the hooks and dots on the first picture are some sort of dating code.
On every (almost every ) waidmannsheil shell we see this type of hooks and dots.
There is always one dot missing and this together with the variety of hooks is a way of dating them.
The earliest I know of is dated 1923 and they stopped dating on 1976.
Between 1943 and 1949 they did not date there shells and probably ( this is just a guess ) did not produce them because of WW 2.

I have a complete list of the dating codes on paper but have not the possibility to scan it.
Perhaps somebody has it digital??

They also used green, blue, red/orange, lightbrown and yellow cases but these are much harder to find.

When wanted I can make some pictures of some in my collection.

Many regards rené


#5

Shotmeister,

here a lot of samples and pictures

sammlermunition.de/schrotpat … mannsheil/


#6

Hi Pivi,
You beat me on this one, I just made some pictures of some samples.
But I still show them, including a picture of the data sheet.


I hope that these pictures are of any use.
Please note the brown .410 case. It was spelled WEIDmannsheil.
The two on the top left are made for export to the UK.

many regards rené


#7

Renè, I didn’t know these shotshells had a date code system!Very interesting. This black cartridge is the very first shotshell I shot. I still have the fired case around, just curious to look the date code on my sample.


#8

Waidmann is an old expression for hunter. Waidwerk dto. for hunting.

The traditional way (even today) to express best wishes to a hunter is to say “Waidmansheil”. He/she will express her/his thanks by responding “Waidmannsdank”.

“Aktie” is a share of a joint stock company (or I think corporation in U.S.). Aktiengesellschaft (AG) is corporation.

The corporation was named: Vereinigte Köln-Rottweiler Pulverfabriken AG, usually shortened to Köln-Rottweil AG


#9

Many thanks to everyone for such a wealth of information! Pivi’s link helped me understand this shell too. Although I knew it was German, the same company, I didn’t understand the pattern on the top wad until I saw the pictures. It is an R, with the numbers inside it, obviously for Rottweil. I am only guessing but I believe this aluminum shell was probably made in the 1950’s.

The topwad has mm on the bottom but I assume this is for the shot size, 7mm, and the powder is 2 1/2 Dram Equiv.?




#10

7 is the German shot size number, corresponding to 2.5 mm diameter.


#11

Thank you very much!


#12

Shotmeister, I have an all-aluminium Rottweil case too. Mine has a star crimp so the lead size is over-written on the base.

My sample has a different primer, mine is silver colour

My headstamp: ROTTWEIL 12 METALL 12 but there is also a smaller “MADE IN GERMANY” around the primer

Written over the base : 2 1/2 mm


#13

Can anybody tell me the meaning of the two lines left and right of the 12 on the headstamps??
12| |12
On other headstamps there are also dots to be found on the same place.

Could it be some sort of code for manufacturer of the heads??

Any help would be great.

René


#14

Rene’, the marks are exactly as they appear in the picture, the one on the left is shorter than the one on the right… if that means anything.
I also noticed some discoloration in the cup so I ran a magnet over it and found it to be steel. In fact, there appears to be a steel liner in the shell. Since this shell was dated to 1935, I found this surprising, assuming that the steel was used as a war conservation effort.
I am learning a lot from these old shells.


#15

I went to SLICS with this one shell and came home with 12 more like it! I guess I have a new collecting field now.


#16

Hello polman.

I am an amateur collector and I’m intrigued by the dating method used by Rottweil. I have tried to search the internet but I have found nothing to give me an indication. Can you share the chart you mentioned please?

Regards


#17



I hope that you can find out how it works.

Regards René


#18

Great information. I had no idea this system existed.


#19

Just to clarify.
The text behind the years. ( like Rottweil Rauchlos ) are the headstamps.
This makes a rough dating possible.
The ’ hooks and dots’ is a very clever system indeed!


#20

Hi polman, and thank you for posting the form regarding the dating of the Rottweil cartridges!
Very interesting.

I have a couple of questions …

  1. The shell on top of this page is dated(by you) to 1935…is that just a misprint for 1938?

  2. i have found several shells with all 10 dots,do you have any explanation…?

It looks like they switched from K.R.A.-caps to Sinoxid around 1936, does this match when the Sinoxid caps came on the market?

  1. The yellowbrown blackpowder cartridges from the same time have a different type of ignition cap.
    Was this a commom practice?
    Old Norwegian Blackpowder and smokeless shotgunshells seems to have identical ones…

Many questions, hope for answers …
Thanks Finn