Help to identify the case


#1

Could you please help me to identify the case, which is right hand on the picture.
This case came to me with a heap of standard 8x56 R Kropatchek cases. At a first glance it looks like Kropatchek 8x56 R.
But there are some differences

  1. Case has 54 mm length vs. 55-56 mm Kropatchek case should have (left hand on the picture)
  2. There is no head stamp. But the head has radial slightly embossed dashes. It looks like not a stamp but something left after case punching
  3. The shape of case head differs from other typical Kropatchek heads shapes. The bevel of asked case is noticeably bigger than standard Kropatchek case left hand.
  4. The case has TWO flash holes vs. one which typical Kropachek case should have.

All these features are illustrated on picture. Asked case is right. The standard Kropatchek case for comparison is left.
I would appreciate any thoughts and identification the case right hand on the picture.
Thanks in advance


8 x 56R mm Kropatschek Blank
#2

Not all Kropatschek cases have a single flash hole…I have several 1900-1904 Blanks which had double flash holes…the GR ones definitely had the single hole ( Roth’s Patent) and some of the AE ones also, and most other Portuguese cases have the Roth Pocket up to 1936 ( 1937 they adopted 7,9mm with German re-equipment, and also the Double flash hole Pocket in all their ammo ( 6,5.7,7 (.303) and 7,9mm…I don’t now if they were still making 8mm Krop that late in the day. ( last I have seen is 1928).

As to the case OAL, BP cases tended to have a variable length (esp.for Krops) so a 54mm case would NOT be unheard of. In any case, it may76 be a Blank (wooden bullet) Case; ion which case, the OAL is quite immaterial…I have had Krop cases ( ex Blanks) with OALs from 54mm to 58mm, all in the 1898-1905 period, mixed GR and AE headstamps… NO "unheadstamped"or Sector lines only
cases.

DocAV


#3

They used shorter caces for blanks or dummy (training) samples.


#4

DocAV, THV thanks for prompt reply.
Now it is clear for me that I have Kropatchek case, probably ex-blanks or dummy. And two flash holes are not abnormal for Kropatchek.
The point about producer and country of origin is still not clear for me. As headstamp is absent.
Is it possible for Portugal to produce cases without marking at all? Or it might be another country?
Any thoughts?


#5

I can tell you that Portugal manufactured some 7.82 x 57 rounds with no headstamp, as well as 9 mm Para and perhaps .303 as well. I suspect those rounds were usually for some other country with anonimity was desired. I cannot speak direct to the Kropatchek question.


#6

In “Rifles and Carbines of the Anglo Boer War” Bester an 8x60R Guedes wo/hs, possibly DWM, is listed as being used by the Boers. Possibly Portugal bought some of these and trimmed and reloaded them as blanks. IIRC DWM used two flash holes.


#7

Another possibility about the lack of a headstamp would be cases which were found with minor defects before headstamping had been done and then used for blanks or dummies. In the late 19th century Frankford Arsenal used such brass for this purpose. Jack


#8

These 54 mm cases are also found loaded as ball cartridges and several headstamps are known (all made from cut-down recycled cases).


#9

Thank you friends for all your inputs.
Now the story of this case becomes much clear for me


#10

tr 3080
Yes there is a misconception here these are not the same cartridges the one is a kropatchek the other is a Guedes
the Guedes is about the same case except it is longer and the bottem is different and is not Head stamped I own
both sets if you have the Datig books cheque Vol 1 Page 55and 56 except he gives the same case lenght for both
cartridges wich for the Guedes is a Typo.The Guedes rifle while in production as a single shot gun was already
obsolete before it was handed out and it pretty rare the gun that replaced it was the Kropatchek in Portugal
Why the Kropatcheks are stamped and the Guedes are not is a misteryThe Guedes ball round that I own has a
96 stamped at the head I do not think it stands for 1896 the paper patch is gone and the bullet is corroded but
all there
Sherryl


#11

Serryl
Thank you a lot for reply and information. Very interesting and informative for me. Now I know what a strange shell I have in my collection.
All the best !
Vladimir


#12

I believe the Guedes is known only with a lead bullet and a metal (copper) patch.


#13

Petede coux
Yes Peter Datig shows this cartridge with a patch and lead bullet but I believe that is were so often over the years the
misconception came from he showed both with the same case lenght now to the bullet the one that I have is I am sure
A Guedes I must own it for about 40years and in the beginning also had thought it was a Kropatchek until some day
I became the owner of several Kropatchek rounds and realized something was wrong.And some day by accidend
I got a Guedes blank they matched perfect.The bullet in the cartridge is corroded by about 20% and one can see by
close examination that there was a patch what the 96 stands for is a mystery,since then I have not seen anymore
authentic Guedes rounds if they produced both cupro nickel and lead bullets needs some research.Or maybe some
one out there has some other Guedes rounds?
SHERRYL