Horizontal Pinfires! (Revolver & Rifle)


#1

Anyone have any information on these? At all?

Click images to see a MUCH higher resolution version!


#2

These are french horizontal pinfire cartridges patented by August L. Lenoir.

I don’t know the scale of the picture above but several calibers were made from 9 to 17,5 mm (in various case lenghts). The lower picture shows a 12,8 x 57.

There are several related patents, including:

1849

1855

1861


#3

Fede, thanks!

Do you happen to have the corresponding text for the patents? or the whole thing in a PDF or something???


#4

And the sizes are as follows:

Cartridge 1:
Rim Diameter:14.07mm
Case Diameter: 12.73mm at bottom of case to 12.83mm at top of case
Case length: 12.72mm
OAL: 19.65mm

Cartridge 2:
Rim Diameter:12.89mm
Case Diameter: 11.81mm at bottom of case to 11.90mm at top of case
Case length: 13.30mm
OAL: 25.55mm (bullet point is flattened a little)

Cartridge 3:
Rim Diameter:10.84mm
Case Diameter: 9.92mm at bottom of case to 9.72mm at top of case
Case length: 14.45mm
OAL: 23.33mm (bullet point is flattened a little)

Cartridge 4:
Rim Diameter:10.82mm
Case Diameter: 9.73mm at bottom of case to 9.76mm at top of case
Case length: 13.21mm
OAL: 22.84mm (bullet point is flattened a little)


#5

These almost seem to be a variation on the theme of needle fire cartridges, but hoping for greater reliability by use of a metallic instead of paper case/wrapping, and providing an internal needle type pin as a substitute for the usual long and fragile needle which could then be shortened to what would be considered a firing pin in most arms today.


#6

The four ctges for handgun you show are not Lenoir ctges, but May ctges.

Lenoir never made ctges for handguns

jp


#7

[quote=“jeanpierre”]The four ctges for handgun you show are not Lenoir ctges, but May ctges.

Lenoir never made ctges for handguns

jp[/quote]
JP,

May, as in Victor Francotte May??

That would make these Belgian, not French cartridges?

Do you have any patents??


#8

Similar ? no date on this draw …
Bsrg, Dan


#9

In french Aferhm annual Bulletin 1998, our friend Christian Ramio say about Auguste Léopold Lenoir:
He make one system with operture similar to Pauly am 6 january 1849, am 26 june 1950 he make cartridges with horizontal pimfire, he work about all the rest from his life… Error or confuse ?
Bsrg, Dan


#10

[quote=“AaronN322”][quote=“jeanpierre”]The four ctges for handgun you show are not Lenoir ctges, but May ctges.

Lenoir never made ctges for handguns

jp[/quote]
JP,

May, as in Victor Francotte May??

That would make these Belgian, not French cartridges?

Do you have any patents??[/quote]

no, it is not the same May.
he is french, not belgian

I dont remember if I have the patents but I can find them

jp


#11

Yes, some rare cartridges. Thank you for posting.


#12

[quote=“Munavia”]In french Aferhm annual Bulletin 1998, our friend Christian Ramio say about Auguste Léopold Lenoir:
He make one system with operture similar to Pauly am 6 january 1849, am 26 june 1950 he make cartridges with horizontal pimfire, he work about all the rest from his life… Error or confuse ?
Bsrg, Dan[/quote]
right
but rifles ones, not handuns ones
jp


#13

Here is an update from my research on the Lenoir Cartridge.

Type: 13.5 x 57 Lenoir Horizontal Pinfire

Manufacturer: August L. Lenoir

Additional Info: This is one of the very few known examples of the incredibly scarce 13.5x57 Lenoir horizontal pinfire experimental cartridges. August L. Lenoir took out three French patents on this system. The first was on January 6, 1849 on French patent number 4088. The second was dated August 9th, 1855 on patent number 24.051 and the third was dated November 11th, 1861 on patent number 51.850. This cartridge dates closest to the second patent. The case is made out of rolled brass foil in a green cardboard tube; which is glued down to the bottom of the drawn brass base shell. The pin goes from the bottom of the base all the way through the inside of the cartridge up to the base of the bullet where a pointed end rests in a primer cup. More detailed information on the specs of the cartridge is outlined a little lower in this post under the picture of the cartridge.


Click Image for Larger Version

A: Pin that goes all the way through the cartridge:
B: Thick, pressed paper pulp designed to both hold and balance the pin
D: Thick wad of cardboard wool with hole drilled for zinc primer cap
G: Thick shaped paper to separate the powder from the pulp. It also (if I understood the translation correctly) aids in controlling the direction of the explosion, since it is exploding downwards rather to upwards
H: This looks like a really important part. It is a tiny copper washer meant to hold the pin in place and prevent it from cutting the paper shape (talked about in “G”)
I: Paper protrudes out of the base, and is glued to the bottom
E: The conical bullet has ridges that have tallow (beef or mutton fat) in them to lubricate and clean the barrel when shot

Also, in the Smithsonian publication, Small Arms Ammunition at the International Exposition Philadelphia, 1876, by Berkley Lewis says that:[quote]Lenoir obtained French patent number 4088 in 1849, covering a horizontal inside pinfire cartridge (plate 2k). The pin struck a cap placed against the bullet base, thereby providing a solid anvil against which to hit the primer. This idea was resurrected in the United States about 20 years later in Frankford Arsenal experiments on ignition, but was considered impractical. The paper or fibre base did not provide an adequate seal.[/quote]
Does anyone have any information on these trials that the Frankford arsenal did in the late 1860s or early 1870s with horizontal pinfires?!?

And here is a better picture of the cartridges:

Click image for much larger version!

[color=#000080]I still do not have much info on the revolver cartridges, though I found some evidence that some of these may have been made by Chaudin or by Chaudin and Devisme and may be described in patents of theirs between 1847 and 1855.[/color]