How is it even possible to do this?


#1

saami.org/specifications_and … ations.pdf

I was looking at this, and it has good info, but I noticed a few things:

How in the name of god is it possible to stuff a .338 Win Mag in a .300 Savage?

What knucklehead decides to try to shoot .30 Carbine in a .243 WSSM?

I also nominate the .38-55 as “The cartridge you can drop in most rifles and it might well fire, despite being horribly unsafe”


#2

I see many more combinations which seem to be listed for no good reason as they physically would not fit the chamber.

The worst is that one of the most popular “confusions” is not listed!
Namely 9x19 being used in 7.62x25 resp. 7.63x25 chambered weapons. As the cartridge will chamber AND fire.
A typical problem with C96s which are getting shot with 9x19 - and no, they have no “red 9” on the grips.

I wonder who compiled this list and how good he knows his job.


#3

Alex as you very likely know, SAMMI is the government? organization here in the U.S.A. who determines the factors in ammunition and guns that make them safe and applies standards of manufacture. Who ever compiled the list must be someone qualified to do so, or he / she wouldn’t have been given the job, and it would likely have to have been approved by their supervisor before it saw print.

So it obviously can’t have any mistakes. Everything must fit as it’s now in print and on the internet.

See it’s simple when you know the facts of how things work.

No, I trust everyone from the government, and am not at all bitter.


#4

I’m shocked to see that neither the 45ACP or the 45 Casull are not listed as dangerous to use in a 9mm Luger!!!

Actually, the strange calibers listed, and those not listed make me thing that these may be caliber mismatches that actually caused problems in reported incidents. Never underestimate the ability of some dumbbell (not my first choice of descriptors) to cram the wrong caliber into a weapon by brute force.

I suspect that firing a 9mm Luger down a 7.62mm barrel isn’t that dangerous since I know for a fact that it is not uncommon. Does the gun no good, but unlikely to be particularly dangerous. I remember the classic case from the early 1960s when a hunter in Colorado made himself a hunting rifle by rechambering a Japanese rifle to 30-06. Hunted with it for a number of years, with good success, but eventually brought it to a gunsmith because he thought the recoil was a bit high. Turns out he had rechambered a 6.5mm rifle! The gun was inspected pretty intently and was in fine shape. It handled the squeeze bore approach to hunting with a 30-06 cartridge with no problem. A testament to Japanese manufacture of that period, but also of the ability of weapons (at least some of them) to handle oversize bullets.

Classic story! The gun use to be in the NRA museum collection the last I heard.

Cheers,
Lew


#5

Alex as you very likely know, SAMMI is the government? organization here in the U.S.A. who determines the factors in ammunition and guns that make them safe and applies standards of manufacture. Who ever compiled the list must be someone qualified to do so, or he / she wouldn’t have been given the job, and it would likely have to have been approved by their supervisor before it saw print.

So it obviously can’t have any mistakes. Everything must fit as it’s now in print and on the internet.

See it’s simple when you know the facts of how things work.

No, I trust everyone from the government, and am not at all bitter.[/quote]

Pete, oh, I am sorry for criticizing govt. employees who of course are the best that can happen to a country and who are (of course) the top brass in their fields…
It actually seems to be the case in all countries all over the world. So I fully agree with you!


#6

Praise the C.I.P. ;-)


#7

[quote=“Lew”]

I suspect that firing a 9mm Luger down a 7.62mm barrel isn’t that dangerous since I know for a fact that it is not uncommon. Does the gun no good, but unlikely to be particularly dangerous.

Cheers,
Lew[/quote]

Lew, I know this works in some way as for example I heard first hand stories from German WWII soldiers who used captured Soviet PPSh SMGs with 9x19 cartridges and when the gun started showing any anomalities they discarded it and took another one.
This may work with 9x19 FMJ lead core ammo in a 7.62 C-96 as well - somehow. The backside of 9x19 being used in a 7.63x25 C-96 is that here in Europe many people used to use (those who owned illegal guns and did not know much about and had no access to propper ammo) German WWII steel cored or sintered iron bullets then which were floating around as after every war. Here the effect is somewhat different from lead core FMJ ammo as one can imagine.
I saw once a C-96 where the barrel had an inner diameter of 9mm (!) and the lands and grooves were one level and just the edges of the lands and grooves where visible as slight traces. Further the barrel was bent (visible with the bare eye) to one side right at/from the chamber.

I did not go back to that list bud did they tell not to use regular 9x19 in 9x19 Glisenti guns???


#8

EOD, You are renown for your keen insight—proven again by your analysis of government employees!

You are of course correct on the use of the wrong caliber of ammunition. Our friend in Colorado may have had a very different experience had he fired some 30-06 AP. I wonder what Incendiary 30-06 would have looked like as it left the muzzle of his 6.5mm barrel. These are the people the Darwin Awards were invented for.

Cheers,
Lew


#9

I get the feeling that for every one of these examples somebody, somewhere has tried it. Some of the mixups are down right ridiculous though.


#10

Could anybody tell me why I shouldn’t load a 9mm NATO in a 9mm Luger/Para? I understand this Technical Dara Sheet is an official document and I’m afraid
a lot of important officials get their knowledge from this. Reading this I more and more understand people who say the US never made it to the moon.


#11

If I understand it correctly the NATO 9x19 has a higher chamber pressure compared to a regular CIP 9x19 round.

The experts may explain this better.

I am wondering myself.


#12

EDIT!!!:

Just ckecked the NATO STANAG and the CIP on the 9x19:

NATO (as per a German military doc) = 3000 bar
NATO STANAG = 2300 bar
CIP = 2350 bar (3055 bar is already a HPT load for as per CIP)

This brings me to the recent question here on the PA colors of S&B where this difference is also indicated - but with different figures.

I AM CONFUSED !


#13

I learned that NATO rounds have a higher gas pressure because they are used in handguns and smg. Anyway, any modern pistol can handle these rounds.
…but ( for those who want to try it ) 9mm NATO are a sure way to ruin Grandpa’s 1913 booty.


#14

Rolf, where does the 3000 bar come from in German docs?


#15

HP L7A1 9mm NATO made for the UK is expressly forbidden from import to the US because of excessive pressure that destroyed a number of weapons, according to what I have been told. I suspect trying to explain how to identify this ammo to shooters, many of whom show little interest in the finer points of cartridges, was deemed too difficult by SAMMI so they recommended against using any 9mm NATO for civilian shooting in a 9mm Luger weapon!!! This is considered a big deal because the L7A1 was brought into the US in large quantities and full boxes still show up regularly. I received two full boxes with some stuff a few months ago.

But I expect the point made by Rolf is probably the real reason for the recommendation on 9mm NATO. If a shooter isn’t smart enough to understand what weapons he can shoot it in, he probably shouldn’t use it in anything.

Cheers,
Lew


#16

EOD The military Ammo Data Sheet - Munitionsmerkblatt - for Patrone 9mm X 19, DM11B1 from July 1970 gives a gas pressure of 2600Kp/cm2, equal to 2600 bar.
Next Munitionsmerkblatt for Patrone 9mm X 19, DM11A1B2, December 1976, gives a gas pressure of 3000 bar.

I have the German Text of STANAG 4090 from April 1982. Subject : SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION ( 9 mm PARABELLUM ).
Paragraph 5 of this is about Gas Pressure. - I’m writing this in German, I’m missing too many of these special terms in English. But some one can translate this,
I hope.

  1. Der mittlere Spitzengasdruck im Ladungsraum darf 2600 kp/cm2 bei radial eingeschraubtem Gasdruckmeßgerät mit Kupferstauchzylinder nicht übersteigen;
    keiner der gemessenen Gasdruckwerte darf über 3000 kp/cm2 liegen

#17

[quote=“RolfFoerster”]

  1. Der mittlere Spitzengasdruck im Ladungsraum darf 2600 kp/cm2 bei radial eingeschraubtem Gasdruckmeßgerät mit Kupferstauchzylinder nicht übersteigen;
    keiner der gemessenen Gasdruckwerte darf über 3000 kp/cm2 liegen[/quote]

In English it should be:
5. Average PMax shall not exceed 2600 kp/cm2 with attached radial pressure meter with copper crusher, the measured pressures shall not be higher than 3000 kp/cm2.

Somehow difficult to understand to be honest as they do give 2600 and 3000 kp/cm2 as a max pressure.

I sent you an e-mail with a “Technische Lieferbedingungen” (TL) for the 9x19 DM11 A1B2 where it says 3000 bar.


#18

I found the pressure as well as muzzle velocity figures in Munitionsmerkblätter to be not very reliable.


#19

[quote=“EOD”][quote=“RolfFoerster”]

  1. Der mittlere Spitzengasdruck im Ladungsraum darf 2600 kp/cm2 bei radial eingeschraubtem Gasdruckmeßgerät mit Kupferstauchzylinder nicht übersteigen;
    keiner der gemessenen Gasdruckwerte darf über 3000 kp/cm2 liegen[/quote]

In English it should be:
5. Average PMax shall not exceed 2600 kp/cm2 with attached radial pressure meter with copper crusher, the measured pressures shall not be higher than 3000 kp/cm2.

Somehow difficult to understand to be honest as they do give 2600 and 3000 kp/cm2 as a max pressure.

I sent you an e-mail with a “Technische Lieferbedingungen” (TL) for the 9x19 DM11 A1B2 where it says 3000 bar.[/quote]

EOD
2600 maximum AVERAGE pressure, of the lot being tested (normally a 20 round sample lot)
3000 maximum INDIVIDUAL pressure, of any single cartridge in the test lot
In SAAMI specs, these are noted as MAP (which is the pressure you see listed in reloading data, etc) and MIP (which is only seen in SAAMI specs)


#20

Tailgunner, here the situ is somewhat different. I am aware of some of the tolerances and the “average” out of a number of tested cartridges.

I kept on the discussion with some people and learned that there is different measuring procedures as for CIP and NATO and even within German military ammo there is a huge spread of PMax.
Per CIP method from 2548 to 3890 bar while average CIP is giving 2350 bar for 9x19.
All this is quite unlogic to me (not that my ignorance would matter in any way).

Is there somebody to find out how SAAMI is measuring and how their data converts into CIP measured figures?