How to name this cartridge?


#1

I have bought an inert cartridge in a collection. The seller named it 7.63х25 Mauser. But the cartridge is made in Austria in 1897. Headstamp \97/\k&c/. At this time Austria had own consumer of similar cartridges. It is a pistol of Mannlicher М96. And its cartridges were called 7.63х25 Mannlicher. And I think that the Austrians had no time to do cartridges for the Mauser pistol.
So I have bought?


#2

Your cartridge is called the 7.63 mm Mannlicher Model 1903, as well as the 7.65 mm Mannlicher Model 1903 and the 7.65 mm Mannlicher model 1896. It has also been called the 7.65 mm Mannlicher Pistol-Carbine Model 1901. It is a lighter load than the 7.63 Mauser or 7.62 Tokarev, but dimensionally identical. It is actually about the same cartridge as the original 7.65 mm Borchardt round.

There are other headstamps in this cartridge, including from DWM and from Polte in Germany. It can only be identified by knowing what the specific headstamps are, or by box label.

It is DWM Catalog Number 497

Nice round - congratulations.

Reference: “Handbuch der Pistolen- und Revolver-Patronen, Volume I,” by Erlmeier and Brandt,
Catalog 74, page `08.

John L. Moss


#3

John,

This is confusing to me and I don’t understand all the nomenclature, especially the DWM system. I know enough that this cartridge has at least a dozen different synonyms.

Is DWM 403 or DWM 403A as well as DWM 497 related to this cartridge in anyway?? I really don’t know the answer but am curious.

Thanks.

Heavyiron


#4

Thanks John,
I know that this family of cartridges has many names, therefore so hard unequivocally to identify these cartridges. I cannot measure it with necessary accuracy therefore to have to use logic. It was important to me to make a choice between words “Mauser” and “Manlicher”.


#5

Heavyiron - the reason these cartridges are confusing to many of us is that ammunition is not consistently designated the world over, or sometimes within the same specific countries. We have many instances of cartridges sharing a common cartridge case but being loaded to different pressures and velocities and each being separately named. Yet on the other hand, we have cartridges where that is not done.

The 7.65 Mannlicher Model 97 is based on the 7.65 mm Borchardt case, as was the 7.63 Mauser and the 7.62 mm Tokarev. Yet all four, while usually essentially the same case, primer and projectile, have different powder charges and/or designations. The Mauser is a bit more powerful than the original Borchardt loadings, and the Tokarev is a bit more powerful than the standard Mauser loading. I am sure if you could test samples of all ammunition from those three cartridge designations alone you would find overlaps, causing more confusion.

The 9 mm Glisenti uses the same case as the 9mm Luger (9 mm Parabellum), but with a lighter loading. Many Luger loadings will damage a Glsenti pistol if fired in it. Yet they are dimensionally identical, and again share all components except the amount of powder (the bullet of the Glisenti, always Truncated, is nothing more than a form of the early Luger bullets). However, the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge is also loaded to velocities and the pressures required to produce them, from anywhere around 1050 fps to 1295 fps with the same bullet weights, not to mention that it has been loaded with bullets weighing from as little as around 90 grains to as high as 158 grains in commercially available form, and I am not even considering the “wonder bullets” and frangibles, some of which are as light as 50-60 grains, or the heaviest of the subsonics, which can reach 170 grains. Regardless, with this huge variety of loads, it is still called the “9 mm Parabellum” cartridge. The spread of velocities and pressures is much greater than that between the various, differently-designated 7.63 x 25 mm cartridges. There are Luger loads that are safe in a Glisenti, but I will not discuss that any farther since there is liability involved.

The point is, is that some cartridges received different nomenclatures than others even though the differences among them are really miniscule, while other cartridges are loaded in a huge variety of bullet weights and velocities with NO change of cartridge designation.

Confusing, you bet!

The cartridge in the original question is most properly called the 7.65 Mannlicher, in my opinion. It too, though, was loaded in more than one velocity, as there evidently was a pistol-carbine load (not to be confused with the longer-cased bottle-necked cartridge made for the Mannicher semi-automatic carbine, which was a true carbine, not a pistol-carbine, as with the buttstock removed, there was no handle remaining of any kind to hold and present the weapon for firing).

I hope this clears some of the confusion. It is not a really technical answer, but I think it addresses the question in a way that I hope clarifies the subject a little.

Edited to remove typographical error only

John Moss


#6

Thanks John again