Hungarian 6mm 29M center fire (.22)


#1

Does anybody happen to know in which insert barrels, subcaliber systems or training weapons the Hungarians were using the 6mm 29M center fire cartridge? (basically a .22l.r.)

The only one I know of is the 20x105B Rheinmetall the Hungarians were using in their S18-100 Solothurn AT rifles. They had an adaptor cartridge which took this 6mm 29M but the AT rifle was the model of 1936 as per their designation so the 29M must have been in use for something else before 1936 (since 1929 then).
In addition to that the Hungarians made these 29Ms till at leats 1950 (supposedly longer), here again the same question. For what purpose as the 20mm AT rifle was not in service after 1945?

Do we have Hungarian researchers here which may have an answer?


#2

Alex, two Hungarian weapons received this 29 M. (Model 1929) designation; one was a single shot bolt action training rifle chambering the .22 LR rimfire cartridge, and the other was the well known Frommer 9 mm pistol for which a conversion kit was made to fire the rimfire cartridge also. The designation of this .22 CF cartridge, however, is not related to a weapon model but to an adaptor cartridge model which was adopted for use in 8x50R caliber 95 M. rifles. I remember seeing a drawing somewhere but still can’t find it.


#3

Federico, aha that is a lead already. If you find more it would be interesting to hear about.
Also what for the CF was used after 1945.


#4

Fede - do you have a picture of the Frommer Pistol .22 Adaptor Cartridge? I ask because I have a brass adaptor cartridge from Hungary supposedly for .22/9 x 18 mm Makarov (Which would be for the PA-63 Pistol, probably). It is dimensioned o.k. for a conversion from 9 mm Mak to .22, but the problem is, no one seems to know of the existence of any such conversion. Further, we all know that since adaptor cartridges are usually used in a replacement barrel, that the adaptor cartridges are not necessarily to the same specs as the normal cartridge they are replacing. Furthermore, barrels on PA-63s are not quickly removable - they use the Walther PP style of barrel mount and are, as I recall, pressed in and pinned. In short, special tools needed to change them.
That would mean that a .22 setup would probably be in pistols permanent converted to that use, and no one that I know knows of such a Hungarian pistol (formerly 9 x 18 mm in caliber). There is also an aluminum one from Hungary - that is, an aluminum adaptor cartridge, but it is much more modern looking, although it, too, raises the same basic questions. That is, what in heck was it used in?


#5

John, I don’t know much about the 29 M. conversion kit and I’m not even sure if an adaptor cartridge was needed because one source mentions that a different magazine was used.

Regarding the Hungarian .22/9x18 adaptor cartridges, do these have the same dimensions as the East German adaptors made for the Makarov pistol?


#6

John, just in case you missed my answer…


#7

Fede - I didn’t miss it. Just didn’t have time yet to make the measurements of the three cartridges. I will photograph them too, to give more clarity to the measurements.

It may be another day before I get to it. My camera is set up for other things right now.


#8

John, thanks a lot, no rush with the pictures.


#9

Here is the information and pictures kindly provided by John. Thanks a lot, my friend!

"1 - The picture shows, left to right, the well-known DDR (East German) .22 LR caliber adaptor, which is made of steel. The picture shows it with a .22 cartridge in the adaptor, with the “bump” at the nose being the tip of the lead .22 bullet protruding from the cartridge. The OAL of this cartridge is, however, taken with the cartridge in it.

2 - Next is the brass round, reported as Hungarian, and also .22 LR caliber. Note in the picture (hard to see at a glance) that the nose of the mock bullet is cut at a bias. OAL measurement of this cartridge is from the head to the highest part of the bullet nose. Since the chamber in this cartridge is off-center, so that the center-fire firing pin of the pistol will hit the edge of the rimfire cartridge used with the adaptor, I feel that the slanted tip is probably the method of insuring proper placement in the chamber of the insert cartridge. I think this is a poor design since I cannot see how this could be used in any way but single shot, with each adaptor cartridge placed by hand directly into the barrel. Trying to place them in a magazine at a correct attitude to fully enter the chamber of the barrel, with the chamber of the cartridge off-center, would be tedious in the extreme.

3 - The cartridge to the right is aluminum and reported to be Hungarian, and appears to be chambered for the 4 mm Übungsmunition. The chamber is bored on center, since the 4 mm cartridge is center-fire.

In the measurements, the measurements for the “bullet” refer to the reduced-diameter extension beyond the case length, regardless if shaped like a bullet or not. The case length for the DDR cartridge is to the flat from which the tubular-shaped bullet protrudes, at the top of the shoulder. So, the beveled shoulder is included in the case length measurement. The measurements of all cartridges, other than the case length of the DDR cartridge, fall into the specifications for the Makarov cartridge.

The East German adaptor cartridge is for the .22 Conversion kit, made in small numbers and very rare, for the Makarov pistol. We assume that if the other two adaptors are made in Hungary as reported, they would have been for some apparatus for the PA-63 pistol.

Below are the measurements for each each adaptor round. For each measurement there was actually a slight spread allowing for manufacturing tolerances. We have simply used what seemed to be the median measurement".


Adaptor Cartridge Measurements:


#10

John, I believe that the brass adaptor that is shown in the middle is the one made for the Hungarian 37 M. pistol conversion to .22 LR, which only consist in a new barrel (same slide, same magazine). The chamber of this barrel has a very similar internal shape as this cartridge and the bore is off-centered.


#11

Fede - Do you have any information on the conversion for the 37M Frommer (Femaru) pistol that you refer to? The original caliber of that pistol was 9 mm Corto (.380 Auto) (later made in 7.65 mm Browning as well, but I think that was something the German’s were responsible for).

The measurements of the adaptor cartridge are much closer to 9 mm Makarov, I think, than to 9 mm Short. However, that could be coincidental, I suppose. We all know that, depending on the system of conversion, an adaptor cartridge need have the same dimensions as the original caliber of the the weapon that it is replacing. It has been a long time since I have a Femaru 37M but as I recall, the barrel comes out easily in field-stripping, and in that case, it would make more sense that this asymmetrical adaptor would be used in that pistol rather than in the fixed-barrel PA-63.

I need to really confirm this identity, as if it is for the Femaru conversion, than I must remove mention of it from my text on Makarov Pistol ammunition. I win either way for my collection, since I collect .380 auto cartridges as well! :-)

I still don’t see how these could be loaded successfully into the magazine of the pistol. I am not referring to its measurements, but rather to the critical attitude of placement in the magazine this round would require. In the Norwegian conversion for the .45, for example, it is the bore and chamber of the replacement barrel that is off-center. The cartridge is symmetrical which means it can be at any attitude at rest in the magazine.

CAN ANYONE POSTIVELY IDENTIFY THE ALUMINUM ADAPTOR CARTRIDGE IN THE PICTURE?


#12

I am sorry to mess up again but what would have been the .22 center fire cartridge for the GDR adaptor? I am not aware of such cartridges from GDR production.


#13

Alex, the GDR adaptor chambers a .22 Long Rifle rimfire cartridge and should be used with a conversion kit which includes new slide, spring, .22 caliber barrel and muzzle thread. The designation of this rare conversion is KK-Einstecklauf Modell 4,011-900 für Pistole “M”.


#14

EOM - Fede is correct. There is no “center-fire” DDR adaptor cartridge or conversion. The DDR also made some PMs manufactured specifically in .22 LR Caliber - not a conversion but made as a pistol, although I suspect from the tiny quantity made that they probably used 9 x 18 mm Pistol grip frames and as many other parts from the 9 x 18 as possible, since the pistols seem to have been made only in prototype or test quantities. It requires no adaptor, as a special .22 magazine is made for it, as well as slide with rimfire firing pin and .22 barrel.

The aluminum adaptor cartridge shown on this thread is for the 4 mm practice cartridge, which is center-fire. It is believed to be made in Hungary, although none of our Hungarian friends could ever provide any information on any kind of 4 mm adaptor for the PA-63 pistol. I have always wondered if it is not really German, as for awhile, when Makarov and other 9 x 18 mm Pistols were widely available on the commercial market, a lot of them were converted to 4 mm so they could be sold in Germany with no permit, or whatever permit is required for a 4 mm (I understand, anyway, that these 4 mm guns are easier to own in Germany than would be a Makarov in original caliber. I don’t know German law well enough to know if that is accurate information or not). Do any of our German friends know about this adaptor? It seems to me I have seen other adaptors (different calibers) that look very similar in manufacturing characteristics, shape, and in being all aluminum, but for other calibers of pistols. Still, I do not have any such adaptors in my own collection.


#15

Fede and John, thanks for the clarification!