Hungarian 9mm Makarov


#1

Mihaly - I thought this would best be a new thread rather than further encroaching on the 7.62 x 39 Thread. Listed below are all of the Hungarian 9 mm Makarov cartridges I have in my own collection. Firstly, I would like to know any official name for the various types, first in Hungarian and then in English, if possible. Secondly, to all reading this, I need any one not shown in the initial list, including upgrades of any fired case shown. Third, I would welcome additions taken directly from cartridges, NOT from want lists, memory of what you have seen, etc, nor based on the fact that if they made one one year then they made it the next year to. I need CONFIRMED information. Thanks folks.

I am not going to list every feature. Most have some sort of color seals. No entry means no seals. The “normal” ball bullet is a GMCS RN FMJ. If it is different, I will show it. Brass jacketed bullets are seldom magnetic, as it would be steel core if it were, and that is not the case on most brass-jacketed Makarov rounds.

Ordinary Ball Cartridge:

21 65 This is the earliest date I know of; CWS case; brass primer
21 67 Purple primer seal covering entire primer; CWS case
21 68 Fired case. Purple primer seal; CWS case
21 69 Purple primer and CM seals; CWS case
21 72 Fired case. Purple primer seal; CWS case
21 76 Red primer seal; lacquered gray steel case
21 81 Red primer and CM seals; lacquered gray steel case
21 82 Entire primer sealed red and red CMS; lacquered gray steel case
21 84 Entire primer sealed red and red CMS; lacquered gray steel case
21 85 Entire primer sealed red and red CMS; lacquered gray steel case
21 85 Entire primer sealed red and red CMS; CWS case
21 88 Red primer and CM seal; lacquered gray steel case
21 89 Red primer and CM seal; lacquered gray steel case
MFS 9x18 MAK Copper primer cup; brass case
MFS 9x18 MAK Copper primer; red primer and CM seals; brass case
MFS 9x18 MAK Brass, domed primer; red primer seal; brass case
MFS 9x18 MAK Nickel primer; red primer seal; brass case
MFS 9x18 MAK Nickel primer; red primer seal; brass bullet jacket; brass case
MFS 9x18MAK+P brass primer cup; brass bullet jacket; brass case
LC 9x18 Nickel primer, red primer seal; brass bullet jacket; brass case
MFS BM 9x18 MAK Nickel primer; red primer seal; brass bullet jacket; brass case
MFS 02 Red primer seal; nickel primer; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 03 Red primer seal; brass primer; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 04 Red primer seal; brass primer; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 05 Red primer seal; brass primer; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 06 Red primer seal; brass primer; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 9X18 10/07 Brass primer; red primer seal, brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 9x18 11/07 Brass primer; red primer seal, brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 9X18 12/07 Brass primer; red primer seal, brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 9x18 20/08 Brass primer; red primer seal; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 9X18 22/08 Brass primer; red primer seal; brass case; gray sintered-ion bullet
MFS 9X18 24/08 Brass primer; red primer seal; brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet
MFS 9X18 30/08 Nickel primer; red primer seal, brass case; gray sintered-iron bullet

Short-Range

21 78 Gray lacquered steel case; milky white plastic RN bullet
21 87 Gray lacquered steel case; red primer and CM seals; milky white plastic bullet
MFS 8x18 MAK Brass case; copper primer, red primer & CM seals, milky white plastic
bullet
MFS 9x18 MAK Brass case; copper primer; deep cannelure right beloth case mouth,
Aluminum two-diameter bullet

Marking Cartridges

21 87 Tinned steel case; 6 deep stab neck crimps; brass primer; green primer seal;
Aluminum hollow-point bullet with green tip fill.
21 89 Tinned steel case; 6 deep stab neck crimps; brass primer sealed entirely green;
Aluminum hollow-point bullet with green tip fill.

Sub-Caliber Adaptors

No headstamp Solid aluminum chamber for 4 mm Übungspatrone
No headstamp Solid brass with offset .22 RF chamber

Dummy Cartridges

21 68 Chromed steel case with 4 large holes in side; ChromedCS bullet; chromed,
snapped primer cup
21 68 CWS Case with two large holes in side; GMCS bullet, snapped brass primer,
spring visible thru hole inside the case; remnant purple primer seal
21 87 Brass-Washed Steel case with two large holes in sides; GMCS bullet; snapped
brass primer; red primer & CM seals; spring visible inside case
MFS 9x18 MAK brass-case, GMCS Bullet, brass snapped primer; red primer and CM seal.
This is a trade show dummy, not a true drill cartridge. For displays only.

That is the end of my list. I have included, for accuracy sake, only those cartridges in my own collection. Note that the designation for the ball rounds with sintered-iron bullets is the Czech designation: Vz. 82. These are made for the Slovakian Police.

Additions under the predescribed conditions welcomed.


#2

sWith 89 looks at this thread, no one can add any information on other dates in these types, or other types, or official nomenclature of any of these for me?

John Moss


#3

I checked all mine, John, you got 'em all.


#4

I have 2 that don’t seem to be on your list:
Unknown type (possibly reference), CWS case, GM RN Bt, purple primer, neck seal & bullet tip, "21 67"
Drill or dummy, brass washed steel case, 2 holes near base, through wich a spring can be seen, GM RN Bt, red primer & neck seal, struck primer, “21 87”.

Will


#5

Will - Thank you. The dummy you describe is on my list - same date - and I have it in my collection. The other one I was not aware of. Can you send me a good picture of it, both the head and the cartridge in profile? Or, post it on this thread and I can extract it, I think.

I believe in Czech ammo, the purple tip is pretty much the same as what we call “ballistic standard,” or “reference ball.” Not sure in Hungarian. Perhaps Mihaly or Straki know?

John Moss


#6

John, Will lists his 21 87 dummy as GM, yours is GMCS.


#7

Jon - I noticed that, but frankly ignored it. I assumed that Will went simply on visual inspection for that reply. If Will’s does have a GM bullet, not GMCS, it will be the only Hungarian 9 x 18 mm Makarov round I have seen or heard of with a confirmed GM bullet. Late Hungarian loads, primarily commercial, with brass bullet jackts are non-magnetic. All Hungarian military loads and commercial loads in my own collection, and that I have ever seen or heard of before, that have a GM bullet jacket take a magnet, and would generally be classed as GMCS.

Now, and this would be especially interesting to find out, if they are all steel core, it is possible all the GM jackets are just that. The only reason I discount that now is that the commercial rounds had to have lead cores to be imported into the United States. In truth, I have not separated a core from a jacket to see if any GM jackets might exist. It is hard to tell using the “weak magnet” technique at the very point of the bullet because they are so blunt in shape. My attempts at using the corner of a weak magnet on the tip were inconclusive, and as such, I cannot state with certainty that the jackets are GMCS. Perhaps they are a pure copper jacket over a teel core. If so, though, I don’t know how the commercial rounds got by inspection for importation.

If anyone can give a definitive answer to this question, with documention either from official documents or from totally separating a core from a jacket and testing of just the jacket for ferrous content, I will appreciate hearing about it. It is an important point, and one that I must now address, unless Will confirms that his bullet jacket is actually GMCS and not GM as he first described it.

If these jackets are GM over a steel core, it may become necessary to reevaluate the way that we describe bullet jackets. (CN; CNCS; GM; GMCS; etc.). There may be many other cases of this in pistol bullets. Spitzer rifle bullets are pretty east to separate by the properties of the jacket alone, due to their normally long and point tips. Self-loading pistol rounds are not so easy.

John Moss


#8

Just for the record, I have received a PM from Will. He did not have a magnet at hand, so simply described the visible material of the bullet, exactly as I would have done. The bullet on his dummy round is GMCS, as is mine. He simply missed it when he looked at my list, easy to do on a list like I made, since I don’t know how to do proper columns on this Forum, so that they will print the way I type them (even what is on my initial list did not print with the same spacing that I typed it in, and therefore is harder to read).

Thanks for the help will. Jon, thanks for having an eagle eye. It could just as well have gone the other way - that is, something in his answer that I missed. I do that all the time too!

John Moss


#9


#10

Mihaly,

Beautiful chart. We have real computer artists on this Forum!!!

I edited my “Hungarian List” to remove the “90” date from the marking cartridge. My two cartridges are dated 87 and 89 respectively. I don’t know if the “90” was a typographical error on my part, or simply the hallucinations of a senile old man. Sorry about that.

If you run across any dates not shown on my list, please advise me. It is odd that the earliest known Hungarian date so far is four or five years after the first pistol in that caliber was adopted. Do you know who made the ammunition for Hungary, for those pistols (The Models 59, 61 and 63) b efore 1965?

John Moss


#11

So all of these MFS brand 9mm mak cartridges had steel cores from the 70’s & 80’s according to that chart? I wouldn’t mind fidning a few of the marker rounds and plastic short-range trainers also.


#12

How do these ‘marker powder holder’ rounds work exactly? I take it from the heavy staking that the ‘bullet’ remains in the cartridge.


#13

DKConfiguration,
there are only 21 = Bakony Veszprém marked, not 23 = MFS Sirok branded items from the 70s/80s.


#14

MFS (Arsenal 23) did not make any 9 x 18 mm Makarov ammunition during the Communist Period in Hungary. Sold production was at factory 21. All of their military ball cartridges are steel-core.

Mihaly - can you give us an explanation of the way the Marking Cartridge works. I agree with Jim that the “bullet” remains in the case, but I, too, am not totally clear on how the cartridge works. Is the paint or marking agent within the bullet held in any kind of a capsule? If not, I cannot imagine that it has much range at all, expecially on a windy day. Is the bullet designed to be shot directly at individuals playing the role of the “enemy” or is it shot only at non-human targets. Many of the markers, most I dare say, are designed to shoot at human targets, although those people wear some items of protective clothing. Does anyone have a cutaway of this cartridge, and pictures of the cutaway they could post?

Also, does anyone have any Hungarian Makarov rounds of a description or even just a date not shown on my posted list - that was the original intent of this thread on my part; to fill in the blanks. I cannot believe that I have all known dates and variations of Hungarian Makarov ammunition tabulated there. That just doesn’t happen no matter how much you research a subject, or at least not with a heavily produced item like the 9 x 18 mm Makarov cartridge.

John Moss


#15

Hello to everybody,

Makarov ammunitions made in Bakony Muvek were always assembled with steel core bullets. They put steel core bullets even into the dummies, as well.

On the bottom of the “bullet” of the marker there is a hole (app. 1mm in diameter). When the powder gas pass through on this hole it blows the chalk powder out from the container. Unfortunately I don’t know its exact field of use, but I will check it. I don’t even know that what distance the powder can get to.

John, maybe they used Soviet ammunitions before 1965. Unfortunately I don’t know the exact answer.

Best regards,

Mihaly





#16

Mihaly - Beautiful work! It brings up many questions for me though. I have a fired Marker round I have retained for sectioning, although I have not been able to get it to a friend who does that yet. Your photograph of the pulled bullet was a big surprise to me. The entire weight of my fired cartridge, including case and fired primer, is only 80.2 Grains (5.19 grams), and because of this, and the fact that the bullet is non-magnetic and silver/white in color, I assume the bullet (dye-marker holder) was made of aluminum. However, in your picture, the base of the bullet is clearly gilding metal. Is this a two-piece bullet in actuallity (your cutaway drawing shows it as monolithic)? Is the base portion magnetic? What is the weight of the pulled bullet - I cannot get the bullet of of my case - it is way too light and to tightly held to the case by the six, staggered punch-crimps, to be pulled with an inertia bullet puller.

My fired round is headstamped “21 89” by the way, and is standard, with the tinned or zinc-plated steel case, and green primer seal.

Maybe together on this Forum, we can really define this Hungarian load. Although common to most Makarov cartridge collections, no one has ever been able to define it use and construction completely for me, and my own research has not turn up any complete explanations of the cartridge either. We all know generally how it works, but not specifically.

If the bullet is NOT two pieced, I assume the line around the bullet, separating the silver-color portion of the bullet from its copper-color base, is a crimping groove, although it seems to narrow for the diameter of the punch crimps on the Marker cartridge, and the fact that they are slightly staggered, not in a straight line around the case.

Do you know Vince Strak, Mihaly? Perhaps he can get into this conversation as well - we have not heard from “Straky” in awhile.

John Moss


#17

John–I think you have confused the two loads shown by Mihaly. The two-piece bullet is a Short Range, not a Marker round.


#18

Ron - you are correct. The marker rounds have been erroneously referred to so often as “short range” cartridges that I didn’t even pay attention to the different ogive of the bullet. Of course, the plastic top of the bullet in the short range, in the picture, is about the same color as the marker round, and the picture was somewhat out of context, since the discussion was the marker round. I am grateful to Mihaly for that picture as well, though, because I was unaware of the construction of that bullet, never having had enough specimens to rip one apart to look at the bullet. I though it was simply a thin gas check on the base.

Thanks for the “catch,” and sorry about that folks. I still would like Mihaly to confirm if the marker “bullet” is actually made of aluminum or not. Things aren’t always how they look when some rounds have different platings on the bullets for identification. I am pretty sure it is, due to the light weight of the cartridge, but it would be nice to positively confirm it.

I will now try to find a dupe of the short range to tear one completely apart, and see what’s going on there.

John Moss


#19

Dear John,

The “bullet” of the marker is shaped from one piece of aluminium.

In the 4th picture there is really not a pulled out marker bullet, but a fired out plastic short range bullet. On its bottom there is a copper cup, that helps to lead the plastic bullet in the pistol barrel in order the bullet not to be broken to pieces.

I know Vince Strak only from hearsay, I don’t know him personally.

Mihaly


#20

Here is another pic of a 9x18 marker rd next to some other cartridges. It is the second from the right, and it looks like there are some high crimps, and some low crimps: