I.D. help

Need ID help
The rim is 13.4mm The base is 11.8mm The neck is 10.9mm The bullet is 10.2mm
The case is 65.5mm
Headstamp is RWS NURNBERG

See pic. 10.2x65.5 R

Thank you for any help

The dimensional data of your round are close to those of the german cartridge 10,15 x 65 R Express although slighty larger in diameter ( difference of about 0,1-0,2 mm)

This cartridge has been a bit of a mystery for some time. Several examples are known from Buttweiler auctions and European collectors lists. The first thing to note is that no RWS catalog lists such a 10.15x65R (10.2x65R).

There are really three options:

  1. It is the RWS version of the 10.15x65R (Dixon : GSP42) as Pivi has suggested. However the case is slightly too large for this and it is doubtful that this 11,75/11.8mm base would fit in the c11,7mm chamber of the 10.15x65R.

  2. It is a shorter version of the 10x82R (Dixon : EXP50) which has been referred to as a “400 Express”. This does match that case size which exists with an “R.W.S . NURNBERG .” hs. Note that Buttweiler catalogs have listed this as an ".400 2 1/2in Express.

It is possible that it is both of these things - ie. an attempt to make the 10.15x65R from the 10x82R.


  1. It is a unique calibre ??

Sorry - no exact answer for this one…

I have also been thinking about it could be the case of the 10x82R. The dim. is perfect except the case length. Before (old days) many gunsmith did make there own cartridge with only cutting a long case.
Hmm, new case type or not ? I have seen some other unknown case type but usually they have been reload and believed to be a case made of a longer one, this one looks like unfired but of cause, it doesn’t mean it is a unique case. Those the primer tell us it could be a reload or not? Fred D. has listed (D1 page 79) one cartridge as unknown, does it look like this one ? I don’t have the book so I was hoping some of you could tell me. Thank you, I do hope we can find out this case.

Datig Volume One, Page 79, top, does not show a cartridge as “Unknown.” It shows one he has called the 1.3 x 65R Baenziger. Aside from having a paper-patched bullet, the drawing looks much like the photo on this thread. He ascribes to it DWM Case Number 164, with mention that it is listed by DWM as “Lancaster.” However, the first measurement I checked, the rim, is not very close, nor are some other measurements.

I have converted the measurements give here on this thread to inch, since that is how Datig shows them: Below, the left meansurement is from Alex and the right measurement is from Daitg:

Rim: 0.528" 0.505"
Base: 0.464" 0.462"
Neck: 0.429" 0.431"
Bullet: 0.402" 0.423"
CL 2.579" 2.556"

Datig’s Comments: “DWM Case Number 164. Very popular “Schutzen” or target round used all over Europe but especially in Switzerland in target rifles of the Martini type. Now obsolete. NOTES: List by DWM as “Lancaster””

I am only reporting what I we were asked to check on in Datig. I am not qualified in this field to comment on the cartridge itself. The two sets of measurements hold some that can be explained away as “tolerances” but the difference in Bullet diameter is incredible. Now, I don’t know how it would affect things if Datig measured the bullet diameter right at the case mouth, over the paper wad. I am not sure that would account for the latge (2 “calibers”) of difference. His rim diameter is shown as much xmaller than could be explained by simply manufacturer’s tolerances, also, in my opinion.

Wish I could help more, but as usual, out of my element here.

I think that the Baenziger rim should be much thicker than the one of the Alex’s round

I have a DWM Baenziger case with that thick rim ( reload).
Actually the Baenziger case is simply a 410 bore/36 gauge brass shotshell with an increased rim thickness

While it obviously is a German cartridge case, is it possible that it has been used to form an American cartridge? It sure looks like a .405 Winchester, and the measurements seem to fit also.

Guy’s idea is very interesting since a lot of american were produced by firms like DWM,RWS etc.

I found a spent case by georg roth that fit exactly the 40-65 Winchester dimensions

Unfortunately, since Datig’s pictures are drawings, although very good ones, it is hard to tell anything positive about rim thickness, since he dies not include that measurement in any of the cartridges covered. The drawing may show a rim a little thicker that it appears in this thread’s photo, but who knows? It is very difficult to draw conslusions from a roughtly half-size drawing comparing it with an over full-size photograph.

Just the measurements alone would indicate to me that the cartridge on this thread is not the same as the one in Datig’s book. Again, just answering Alex’s question about the Datig entry.

I’m thinking like Guy and Pivi. .40-72 W.C.F. makes for a real close fit based on the dimensions. I’m measuring a rim dia. of .522 on an example and that’s a little smaller than the measured .528 (I think John typoed a seven rather than a two in his conversion) on the topic item, but everything else looks close enough. The .405 W.C.F. has a rim a bit out of range on the large side, but that is close too.

On the other hand it certainly could be a very similar metric!

Any thoughts?


Dave - good catch. You are absolutely right - big time typo error. Can’t read my own writing. I have edited my table to show the correct figure.
Sorry about that.