Giuilio fiocchi hstp with no date on a 7.63 Mauser ctge
I was told it was for the Italian Navy
Could you confirm ?
Giuilio fiocchi hstp with no date on a 7.63 Mauser ctge
There are Italian-made 7.63 Mauser cartridges, without headstamp, that were supposedly made for the Italian Navy, but it is hard to say that you have an example of one without a picture or better description.
Box labels are “Cartucce per Pistola Automatica M1899” ( There may be the word “Mauser” in there as well.) from a label I remember several years ago ( where I can’t recall…it may have been an article in “DianaArmi” an Italian Monthly Gun Magazine of very good quality. Published in Florence; Ed.Olimpia).
The 5000 Slabside Mauser C96 Pistols for the Royal Navy (Regia Marina)
were delivered 1899-1900, and are known as “Mauser Marina” in Italian Collecting circles ( Italian Navy Slabside in English); The Serials 1-5??? were not used as Commercial numbers by Mauser, which Factory serials jump from 15000 to 20xxx; I have a Commercial M1900 Slabside in the 21xxx series, the Commercial Slabside (Private Purchase) Version of the Italian Model, also sold in Australia during the Boer War period ( some 400 were sold in 1901-2 alone , from the Mauser Agents in Melbourne).
Ammunition was supplied by DM (DWM) initially to Italy, and is headstamped with the usual DWM type headstamp; Italy made ammo initially without Headstamp (Commercially, probably Fiocchi or Leon Beaux or Both???. Later ( WW I issue) were headstamped. But I don’t have or have seen any examples.). The Pistols were mostly issued to Officers and NCOs on Ship’s Marine Infantry Groups; some were used when Battalions of “maro’” were used on the lower reaches of the Isonzo Front, in late 1917 thru to the Armistice in 1918 with Austria-Hungary. After WW II, the Pistols were still used by Naval “Boarding Parties”, gradually being replaced by Beretta M1935 7,65 Pistols for Officers, and MAB38A Subguns for NCOs and “incursori” ( assault naval Infantry) Some MMs were still on issue to ships in the China Station during WW II–Tietsin Naval base, taken over by Japan in 1943 ).
Given the small number of Guns in Service, ammo would have only been sourced commercially ( again, GFL or LBC).
Sadly under-researched area of Italian Pistol History.
There is an interesting book on the subject of the M’1899 Italian Navy Mausers, but only available in Italian. The publishers website seems to be mis-behaving but a quick search found it here:
Happy collecting, Peter
I believe all the rounds and the box pictured are Italian, but which might have been for the Italian Navy I do not know.
Jon - I am sure it was the unheadstamped ones you show. Perhaps all three. They are basically the same except for the presence or lack of primer crimps. Looks to me like they had some problems initially with primers backing out and took steps in subsequent production to correct the problem. The one I was initially given with the information that it was for the Italian Slabside was the one with the two square crimps, but without the additional ring crimp. No evidence - just what I was told by the Italian collector I got it from many, many years ago (1979), when I was traveling in Italy for the first time. The other two I found here, but it was obvious where they came from.
Nice collection of earlier Italian 7.63s you pictured. Thanks for sharing the picture with us.
Thanks, John, know of any others?
It is the one in the top row on the right
There were also some ctges with no hst at all
How do you know they are 7.63 Italian Mauser or 7.62 Tokarev
they have brass case , tombac bullet and the crimping is made by 3 dots
JP - Unfortunately, there is little documentation on the Navy headstamps. The notes I have, and an Italian-language article, by Grimaldi are of no help as the headstamp or lack thereof is not shown in the briief material there is on the 7.63 Mauser cartridge, nor is Pettinelli’s book any help in this regard. All information I have found has been anecdotal, without confirmation.
The only thing that is any kind of defense for the identification of the unheadstamp rounds as being the original rounds for the 1899 Mauser Navy pistols is repetition. Every source that has ever “identified” the rounds for me has pointed to these. Not much of a defense, of course. It is likely that the “FIOCCHI 1916” headstamp is a resupply for the Navy pistols. I don’t recall my WWI history lessons, but it is my impression in my old age that the Italians fought primarily on the Italian Front in Northern Italy during the European War, and did not spread out (ie: Eastern Front, Western Front) much. There primary advisary seems to have been Austria, so I am not sure, regarding the 1916-headstamped Fiocchi round, if this cartridge would have been for captured Mauser “Broomhandle” pistols. It is not my impression that the Austrians used this pistol much, if at all. Early 9 mm Steyr rounds from Fiocchi were likely for captured Steyr Pistols though.
I believe that all of the other Italian rounds in the 7.63 x 25 mm Mauser cartridge are commercial cartridges, not military, including the “G.Fiocchi Lecco” undated headstamp, which is likely, from the tinned bullet jacket, the earliest of the commercial headstamps in this caliber.
Looking at my collection of these, I find that my unheadstamped round, with no primer crimps, has a little tag glued to the case that says, in black ink, handwritten, “Italian Navy WWI.” This is no evidence, but one must give thought to why the original owner of this round wrote that tag. This is one I got in the USA and probably was my first Italian 7.63 mm round. I have had it almost since I started collecting cartridges in the very early 1960s. Perhaps that owner got it from a box, although in all my collecting life, I have never seen a box label for this caliber, from Fiocchi, that I could consider military, including any like Doc Av kindly described for us. That was the best information yet I have seen. The round I got in Italy had the two square primer crimps.
Jon - I have the same rounds you have. The only difference is that my round “G. Fiocchi Lecco” has a flat copper primer cup - yours looks like brass in the photo. Also, my “.G.F.L.7.63 MAUSER.” headstamped round has a flat brass primer cup, not domed like yours. So, there are variants to look for in these commercial rounds. Not surprising for the length of time they were probably made. I have many more Fiocchi 7.63 mm variants, but all more modern commercial rounds than the ones you showed, and sure you probably have them all too, if you bother to collect them.