ID 10.4 x 44


Can anyone please provide any information about the cartridge shown. Headstamp T 8 T 09




I don’t have any details on this particular round, but it is one of a number of different Swiss target/competition cartridges.


Some notes from my database:

This scarce cartridge has a very unusual semi-rimmed case with the appearance of a raised base due to it having a very thin rim. The Base diameter is the same as the 7.5x53 Schmidt-Rubin and it is only known with military hs (mainly “T T” Swiss Thun Arsenal) dated 1904-1917 . Evidently used for both target and hunting purposes in modified Schmidt-Rubin straight pull and Martini type single shot rifles. At least 8 hs/bullet variations are known incl LRNPP as well as both flat and pointed SP bullets .

Various speculations regarding the origins of the case have been offered:
1: manufactured from rimmed cases (but no such case type is known)
2: Not produced by Swiss Government Arsenals and made just after WW1 from components outside of Switzerland
3: Manufactured new for Vasella by the Government arsenal EIDGENOSSISCHES MUNITIONFABRIK at Thun (but why so many different hs ?).

Even the Swiss experts can not confirm these rumours. It is my belief that this was an early attempt at a rimmed case, produced privately c1919-1920 (possibly by Vasella) from used Thun rimless 7.5x53 cases by pressing the rim 2mm from the edge to make it wider and therefore semi-rimmed (but thinner). This would explain the base appearance and also the numerous hs. The 9.3x53R of 1926 made it obsolete.

Some references state that there are specimens of this case type with the hs “T 4 T 50”. These are generally mis-identifications of “05”.Post-1950 would be a bit of a mystery, implying that examples were still produced till after WW2 or perhaps it was produced later than everyone believes (?).



Thanks for the information, particularly that from WBD, really useful.