ID 6,5 mm Arisaka Type 30

Hello, I request your help to identify the origin of this 6.5 mm Arisaka Type 30.
The bullet that loads is with CNCS envelope, so it does not seem to me that its origin is Japanese.
Does anyone have information about the country of origin?

Ximo.

1883H

My impression is that this is of Japanese manufacture, perhaps early in the history of this caliber. Elks does not mention it, as I recall, but I have had one of these that turned up in a mixed bag of 6.5 m/m Arisaka sold in the U.S. by Hunters Lodge in the 1970s. This group of cartridges looked like the sort of cache that would represent ammunition sent by Japan to Russia, as well as cartridges assembled in Great Britain from Japanese components. I have one very much like the one you show that may be part of my original purchase. Maybe someone knows more. Jack

I have one as well. Does yours have a soft tip? Mine does, I concluded it was for civilian hunting and not for military. Anyway, no way for me to tell where it’s from.

I have an identical example (no headstamp) with a single, small, rectangular neck crimp. The crimp may, however; have been added when the cartridge was inerted.

In my notes I have; “30 Shiki Ju Dangan, Japan.” 1897-1905.
But; I have no idea why.

This may well be incorrect…would be happy to edit my notes if there is another explanation.

My specimen has the following crimp, which does not resemble those made in Japan.

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I believe the neck crimps are similar.

Did the Japanese have Soft tips? or a re-manufactured using Japanese surplus brass by pulling the projectile and loading with JSP? I have seen it done with 6.5 Carcano.
I don’t know.

If it was / is an original military load it was a FMJ, soft nose bullets were considered illegal in military use. The Geneva convention. I believe.

Hi Pete,
It’s possible that I might be misguided, but; it was my impression that the Hague Declaration of 1899 was the pivotal point regarding the prohibition of certain types of bullets:

“The 1899 Hague Declaration (the Declaration) is a treaty prohibition based on particular technical specifications about a weapon system, namely,the construction of bullets. The Declaration has been widely adhered to and has assumed the status of customary law.”

“The 1899 Hague Declaration and wound ballistics. The Declaration was generated by the state of development of firearms and ammunition at the end of the nineteenth century; the wording arose from the rudimentary understanding of wound ballistics at that time. A treaty prohibition on “bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions” was an adequate legal instrument for addressing the existing problem.”

Pete I agree on the Geneva Convention on FMJ, but I believe large amounts of the Japanese rifles in 6.5 and 7.7 came in to the USA after the war by GIs and importers.
Then a lot of ammunition was imported and recycled into JSP for hunting ammunition by small ammunition companies, same as the 6.5 Cacano, by pulling the bullet and replacing it with a JSP…
I maybe wrong , but that is how I remember it being told to me years ago and I can not back it up with facts.

I will check my specimen to see if it has the crimp. The presence of this crimp would not necessarily indicate non-Japanese manufacture because while it isn’t at all Japanese-looking I can’t recall anyone else using a single square stab crimp either. Jack

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I found the following:

https://www.cartridgecollector.net/65-x-50-japanese-arisaka-type-30

M1899 Type 30 Arisaka Rifle

“Introduced by Japan in 1897 in the move to smokeless powder. It was based on the Mauser and Mannlicher idea and was designated the Type 30. Used by the Japanese until 1905 when it was replaced by the Type 38. Japanese made Type 30 ammunition does not have any neck crimps, as opposed to the British manufactured ammunition…”

“the British version, namely the .256 Ball Mk.2 was a step backwards from the Mk.1 (Type 38) and was loaded with the 160gr. round nosed bullet secured by three small slit crimps.”

Is it reasonably sure that; “Japanese made Type 30 ammunition does not have any neck crimps?”

Is it possible that a; “single square stab crimp,” had just not been noticed?

There are known instances in which cartridges were manufactured with neck crimps which failed to hold properly on test, so the offending production lot was recrimped in a second location farther down on the cartridge case. The particular instance I have in mind was U.S. 1911 .45 auto ball ammunition made at Frankford Arsenal in the 1930s. Such things happen in the real world from time to time. Jack

You are, of course, correct Sam, thank you.

Dave, you are right a number were imported and then loaded for sporting use. The way you phrased your question “Did the Japanese have Soft tips?” I thought you were asking about issue ammunition.

You are correct about “re-bulleting” military ammo for sporting use.

Back in the mid to late 70s’, I remember seeing quite a lot [about two cases maybe?] of the “odd” calibers, which were not commercially readily available, where the bullets were replaced with hunting bullets.
I also remember seeing a large amount of .30-06 military ammo that had been “re-bulleted” with 8mm soft point for the 8mm-06 cartridge for re-chambered 98 Mousers.
I was told they were “re-bulleted” between 1950~1965, or thereabouts.

I have pulled the following images from:

https://militarycartridges.com/category/052-6-5mm-arisaka/
I’m not sure if this will add to the discussion, but; I’ll give it a try.

I believe I can; ‘see,’ a rectangular stab crimp on the neck of the following. However; my experience is quite limited and I’m not sure if I’m seeing a common manufacturing mark.

Is there any background information to indicate that the Shenyang Arsenal made the Type 30 at an earlier, or later date?

Hope that this may also be of interest:
http://ammunitionpages.com/categories.php?cat_id=144

Japanese 6.5 x 50 Arisaka.pdf (422.3 KB)

I surely wish this thread had stayed on the topic of steel jacketed type 30 cartridges rather than on reloading military cartridges for sport. Getting back to the first topic my CNCS jacketed type 30 cartridge does not have the curious rectangular dent at the juncture of the case mouth and the bullet. Jack

This specimen has “something” that makes it different from the rest of the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka production, and perhaps the answer is here https://www.cartridgecollector.net/65-x-50-japanese-arisaka-type-30


That has been manufactured in Vietnam or in any other Asian country

Hi ximo,

My example is CNCS.

Is it possible (on the basis of the rectangular neck crimp evidence shown above), that these 6.5 Arisaka cartridges were manufactured by Shenyang Arsenal and either by accident, or design, found their way to Vietnam?

“Mukden produced 6.5mm Japanese cartridges from at least the mid-1920s.”
Attribution: Lew (6.5x50 Jap), IAA.