ID 7.62x54r box


#1

Contents are reportedly headstamped “Y 25”, as is marked on the top of the box. I am assuming a 1925 date, but the box is pretty fancy for the USSR. Any ideas?

AKMS


#2

AKMS, This box is a fake I think - or better the label.

  • In 1925 the Soviet emblem did not have the number of stripes (those left and right bearing the republics names on them). The emblem shown is post 1940 to my understanding since the USSR did not have that many republics in 1925.

  • The caliber designation “7.62x54R” is used in Russia only since the late 1980’s - early 1990’s. Before it was “7.62x53R”

  • The quantity given on the box (10 EA) usually has the “ShT.” behind the figure.

  • The cartridge model 1891 was not in production by 1925 for 17 years already and should have had a designation like M91/08 or 1891/08

  • Usually the Russians write the word “cartridges” on their boxes once they decide to mark the box at all, besides that the projectile type could be mentioned (not neccesarily but possible)

  • The white paper is too white for that time, everybody knowing Russian boxes knows how they look like

  • If we look for the font style of the “7.62x54” I would not be surprised to find a Word.doc design.

Any other opinions?


#3

The other information I have on the cartridges inside the box is that they are brass cased with a cupro-nickel “L” ball projectile. In my checklist I have a “y 27” headstamp reported, but no “y 25”. Could this be repacked by some other country years after the fact or packed by some other country to attempt to approximate original Soviet box? Is the box correct and just the label suspect?

AKMS


#4

For the “L” projectile the designation 1891 will be still wrong because it was the M91/08.

The box itself I have never seen since usually they are 15 in a box or 20 in a bundle. Civilain boxes are also 20.

If repacked by another country why all the work with “CCCP” and the wrong symbol?
Most repacked ammo I have seen was marked properly.

Not to forget the contradictions mentioned above.

Let us see what other people have to say.


#5

Can you tell if the label is printed or photocopied?


#6

To answer that it may require a close examination of the original.


#7

and not to forget:

In the “7.62x54” the sign behind the “7” should be a “,” (comma/decimal point) like it is in Russian language but instead it is a “.” (dot) like in English.


#8

AKMS, do you have the box so that you can examine the label?


#9

Sadly, I do not have this box. As with some of the other interesting items I have posted recently, this is just something I have stumbled upon. Unusual things have turned up on other cartridge/firearm related websites where people are looking for identifications. If no answers appear, I copy the pic and post it here.

In my opinion, the label looks odd. Something about the printing looks “flat” or photocopied, or something. Someone went to a lot of effort to make up whatever this is for some reason. IIRC, this item was not being sold for a lot of money or being represented as rare or unique, just a mystery item.

AKMS


#10

I saw, examined and photographed this kind of box at Bill Woodin’s, in the early nineties.
As far as it is known, it came from one of the first International Shooting Contests held in Cairo, Egypt, in the 50ies. For this reason, the aspect of this box is rather fancy. I do not have any specific idea about the number of rounds inside, except the fact that they probably were in 5 rds clips. (the box I speak about was empty).

Cheers!

Philippe


#11

Could the box be a movie prop?


#12

More than likely. In the Industry, when originals are not available to be copied exactly (we always try, using our Forensic reference Collection of Boxes and Packets) the Art department go off and “copy” what they think the original should look like…the result is similar to what you see in the photo.
The same applies to Modern ammunition…unless the actual Ammo brand is mentioned in the plot, boxes have “Fantasy” labels to avoid any trade mark infringements etc with the major makers.

Of course, as mentioned, it could be an “Egyptian” Competition Box, made up in Egypt to repack Soviet supplied ammo in a Packet which “Looked” Soviet…I don’t suppose there were cartridge packet savvy shooters (or Intel agents) at those competitions??? certainly no IAA memnbers.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics Film Ordnance Services
Australia.


#13

As far as I know, these boxes were brought at the Championships in Cairo by the Russian team…so it is quite dubious that they are a “movie” packing or anything else.

THe Y 25 is certainly not a hstp reference, but probably a lot or verification number.

Philippe Regenstreif


#14

I do beleive the headstamp is in fact “y 25”. As I recall, the owner said that this was the headstamp. My checklist from Russ Cornell shows a “y 27” headstamp in existence, or at least reported.

AKMS


#15

I have a round of 7.62x54R with the “27 Y” headstamp. For what it’s worth, the “Y” looks exactly like the “Y” on the box.

I can’t believe it’s been a year since this was posted.