Id help 7,65'n & 9mm


#1

howdy
need help identifying these two rounds; usage & correct names.

The one on the left has written on it that it is a West German experimental, a 22/30, & it has a GM jacketed soft nose bullet. CL is .844" / 21.45mm & rim is .391" / 9.93mm.

The blue plastic-bodied one on the right is unheadstamped & the ball in the nose is steel. Measures .769" / 19.53mm to the shoulder & rim is.387" /9.84mm.

thanks in advance.



#2

The blue plastic round was almost certainly made by DAG in Germany. I have no official name for it. It appears to be for use in some sort of taper-bore barrel, ala the short range/blank-fire kit for the Swedish K’pist 45, in order to create semi or full-auto functioning of the weapon for gallery use, but I have no documentation about that or for what gun it was made. It appears that only one lot was made, as I don’t know of any box label for it, and it is relatively scarce.

I know nothing about the Geco .30 Luger case with a sabot and .22 bullet in it.
We have seen sabots and bullet combinations very similar to this is many different calibers of cases, normally ones where they can be easily inserted in the case, and are not sure in any instance other than the .22 Timbs if any of them were legitimate rounds, or rather just the product of someone with too much time n his hands. I simply don’t know the case with this one.


#3

I have this listed as from Bakelitt in Norway. 1959. Looks like a short range but maybe a blank.


#4

I do have this (blue) plastic one, also under Bakelittfabrikken Norway, not Germany.

The other one (Geco) with sabot: I do not believe, that this is a german made round.
Its a german civilian Geco case with some Sabot. As this was not used in Germany for the reason, that is was forbidden all the time, to use a plastic (or any) sabot, to fire a smaller bullet from the original gun, without leaving Barrel marks on the bullet. This law was in effect from 1968, and those pictured Geco load, seems from the hs later than that…

Forensic


#5

The blue one is certainly not a blank with a steel ball in the nose. I have this round also. I thought it was from Bakkelitte also, but was told that all of these blue-case practice loads (am not just referring to this one, but ones with a more or less normal “bullet” as well, were made by DAG. The brass head, primer, etc., and the color tone, are identical to the normal 9 mm short-range rounds made for years by DAG, (GECO) with many so-marked.

Does anyone have a box label for these? Catalog information? Any documentation that they are made at Bakkelitte or at DAG?

Lew Curtis - what do you say?


#6

Thank you all for your replies & input.

Without any sure knowledge I think I agree with John that the very interesting ‘short range’ example looks like a DAG product just by the color. Not to say Bakkelitte couldn’t have mixed a batch of color like this. The head does look Norwegian, but I’m a long way from expert. (X= unknown & spurt=little uneven moving quantities).
So I’ll list it as perhaps one or the other, until a box shows up. (going to call Tuscon also & will post what Bill says, if he has anything to add).

Regarding the 22/30 my thoughts were also a fantasy or fake, but thought I better ask, Peter seem to have a good argument it is just that.

Both of these were in a somewhat broad ranging case-type revolver / pistol collection given me for our next sale, & I wasn’t familiar with either.

Is this forum great or what !


#7

Got my act together & asked Bill about these. His answer follows.

Hi Pete:

I don’t know about the sabotted one; suspect it’s not factory, but somebody’s test or put-together.
I’m quite familiar with the blue plastic one and we have the label (dating from the days we didn’t keep the box, just cut out the label!).It says:
50 patroner, los, plast
for 9 mm PIST. OG MP. 30 stk
Lot: BF
Mnd. Nov Ar 1959
Svensk type (Pied?sert)

                                          Bakelittfabrikken A/S

I’m sure Morton Stoen or Vidar Andresen can tell you just how this was used.
Bill


#8

Well, thaqt’s a surprise. I see this round is from Bakellitefabrikken in Norway, and is for pistols and SMGs. I don’t know what pistol or pistol accessory it was meant for, but it looks to me like it was probably a try for an all plastic version of the Swedish 9 mm Kammerpatrone (gallery load) which utilizes a taper bore barrel in the Carl Gustafs Stads Kulsprutepistol 45 to allow the gun to work full automatic with the tiny round ball projectile at whatever velocity it is shot at. I don’t know off hand of any other SMG usually something like this, although Lord knows, these days there may be many of them. I guess since I consider SMGs to be relatively useless in this day of full auto assault carbines with very low recoil due to light bullets (5.56, etc.), my interest in them has always been only peripheral to the cartridges they use.

Good info Pete. I guess I should have asked Bill before I expressed my original opinion. I had never seen or even heard of a box label for these. I am kind of loathe to ask him these kinds of questions because I could easily become a real pest, and he is a busy man.

By the way, the round is earlier than I would have guessed, also. I don’t think they started showing up until at least ten years after their manufacture. I could be wrong - that’s plain to see from this thread - but I didn’t get mine until about the early 1980s and it very “new” to me at the time.

I just noticed that the box label says it was for the Swedish type (and then there is a question about the writing, which I would think would say something similar to Pipa insert. I speak no Scandanavian, but I seem to recall a “Barrel” as in gun barrel is “Pipa” in Swedish.)


#9

Translation of the label:

50 rounds, blank, plastic
for 9mm pistol and submachinegun 30 each?
Lot: BF
Month November, Year 1959
Swedixh type ( Think something is lost here )
Bakelittfabrikken A/S

I think I could make a better translation if I saw a scan of the label.


#10

I did not notice that the box indicates this is a blank. I simply don’t see how, with a steel ball in the nose of the bullet the same as on the Swedish Kammerpatroner, which are NOT blanks, that these rounds could be considered blanks. The nose cap for the K-pist 45 that is used with blanks (it is simply not assembled to the unit when the unit is used for short-range rounds with the steel ball) is designed to break up a plastic bullet, not a steel ball.

Something is wrong here!?

I wish our Norwegian friend Morten would chime in here - perhaps he has some more detailed information about these rounds, or can explain how a round with a steel-ball projectile can be called a “blank.”


#11

I have this cataloged as Norwegian by Bakelittfabrikken also. I received it from Vidar, probably in the 1960s. I understood at the time that it was a training test round using the Swedish K machine pistol with the adapter for firing the black plastic bullets with the steel ball in the tip. Never an issue round as far as I know.

I also have a similar plastic body in red with no head and no steel ball in the tip. I understand that this was the earlier plastic body used in development. This red is the same as the typical Bakelittfabrikken red used on their plastic blanks. It was sent to me as a 9x19mm but it appears to be too long unless it was intended to be used in an extended chamber like some Danish blanks.

I don’t understand the box label indicating this is a blank since it obviously is not a blank.

Cheers,
Lew


#12

The box maybe a blank box. We just do not know who exchanged the content or reused the box or, or, or…


#13

EOD, I’d like to see an image of the label in the Woodin Lab. The normal blank box from this period is:

It sounds like they just used a blank box and added information on the label with “Svensk type (Pied?sert)” being stamped on the blank line of the box illustrated. My guess is that the “30 stk” was hand written on the box to indicate that there were only 30 rounds left.

If this was just a test cartridge, it would make sense that they just adapted an existing label. Can only tell if we have an image of the label.

Cheers,
Lew


#14

I had this box blank from Bakelittfabrikken…


#15

Gyrojet - Interesting. Your box was obvious part of a contract for some German-speaking country.

Lew - your red plastic blank body, with no head, looks to be about 23 mm long. I could be wrong - unlike some of our Forum guys, who figure these things out mathematically from the pictures, you know I am too dumb to even begin to try to do that. BF made at least one lot of normal red plastic blanks for Spain - evidently also a short range alla the Geco pattern, although I was told mine, and all other of the pale blue rounds, were German. That was obviously not correct.

I wish I could remember when these blue rounds in question here showed up.
It could simply be that Bill got the wrong box with his round.


#16

It is my understanding that the blue plastic cartridge was made by Bakelittfabrikken as an experimental plastic version of the “9 mm kammarpatron m/39”, as John suggests. I can find no documentation for this, though. The text on the box label is strange, and would translate as follows:

50 cartridges, blank, plastic
for 9 mm pistol and machinepistol, 30 pieces
Lot: BF
Month November Year 1959
Swedish type (??something about “pipe” which means barrel)
Bakelittfabrikken A/S

An image of the label would be fine, but it is most likely that this is an “ordinary” Box for blank cartridges used for convinience, as the cartridge is obviously not a blank. The mentioning of “Swedish type” and something that could indicate the need for changing the barrel (in brackets) makes sense as John says, as you had to change the barrel of the CG m/45 to use the kptr m/39.

The mentioning og both 50 cartridges and 30 pieces is strange. A Guess could be that both “30 pieces” and "Swedish type"etc is printed on the box With a rubber stamp or something, and applies to the New content in the Box, not the original content.

I also have the red “case” which is too long to fit in a 9mmP Chamber when you put on the end piece. Mine comes from Bakelittfabrikken, but I have no idea of what this is. Neither have the current employees at BF!

morten


#17

The actual label, kindly scanned by Beth.


#18

Ok, this makes it clear.

The last word is Redusert, which translates to redused, that will make this a short range round. So they just took an available label and did some changes by handwriting.


#19

Informations from Jean Renard the ECRA Data Manager

The picture of the box from the Woodin Laboratory

The copy of the page 05027BGC010 in the Ecra Data Viewer

chassepot


#20

Hi chassepot
The label I posted is the one from Woodin Lab, Bill gave it to Beth Woodin to scan for us.

Apparently now somewhat hard to do as the scanner is somehow connected to an older server & until they get someone to fix it, it’s not as easy as it should be, for them to scan items.

Thanks for the translation psg1, & it would seem you (& others) are correct about them just using a ‘handy’ label.

morten, thanks for the input in confirming John’s use for this.

Thanks to everyone, for your help.