ID help please 7,92 Mausers and 7,65 Mauser

Have 3 baffling cartridges, and I’m not a military collector so my references in this department are limited. Check lots of past threads, but no matches that helped. First photo has 2 7,92x57. Left, with red sealer/markings, Belgian h.s. F N 40, red annulus seal:
Bullet 8,15 (.321), steel jacket
case 57 exact.
Head 11,85.
Right, green tip, black annulus, h.s. K43 B1Z:
Bullet 8,09 (.318), copper washed steel jacket
Case 57,4
Head 11,85 The green tip looks ??? I have 3 and all look like the paint was ‘gobbed’ on, so…

The third is a 7,65 Mauser. I will assume the VS to be at 12 o’clock, so the head stamp is: VS 40 V 1.
Bullet 7,79 (.307) steel jacket
Case 53.8
Head 12,29 - very heavy ring primer crimp
Rim 12,22
My research turns up bits and pieces, but nothing definitive. I have encountered the red ID markings on some British and French military, but not on FN stuff, before. Any help is appreciated.
BobPC170003

PC170006

The Cartridge Guide by Hogg says #3 is Atelier de Construction de Versaille, France _ French Military
Bob

Savage - I am not into these calibers, so I could be wrong, but are you sure the French round you describe as 7.65 mm Mauser is not actual 7.5 French caliber?

John Moss

Not certain - I’ll check measurements again. The bag it was in was tagged “Argentine” Mauser, but… Going by the response from cztrouba that might be the case. Thanks

Thank you! Knew I didn’t have enough references, and can never have too many :).

Evening Savage.

Is the one with headstamp K43 BIZ a 7.92mm BESA . Check out this (excellent) site, https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/7-92mm-besa/7-92mm-besa-incendiary

John is correct - this (and 2 others) are, indeed, 7.5 French. One of the others has a h.s. TH 32 H 1, and the third appears Arabic. I’ll post it later, if anyone is interested.
Story is, a local gun shop owner asked me to help him dispose of his mess - and here I am.

I considered that, too, as I have seen the K and the BIZ on 303 ammo, but was hesitant to make the leap. I think the green tips were after the fact, they just don’t look right.
Thanks - good link, I’ll keep that source!

The Arabic headstamp on 7.5 French is likely from Syria. I will try to confirm that if you post a picture of it. They used some French Weapons, and Syrian examples of the 7.5 French have made it to America to a point which while maybe scarce now, years later, are not rare in US collections.

John Moss

The other 2 French 7,5. The TH h.s. was an easy find. PC180001

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Savage,

I can confirm the round on the right is Syrian.

john Moss

The K43 BIZ is an incendiary loading. Blue tip is correct for this loading as is the B in the headstamp.

Thanks to everyone for your help with this. Merry Christmas to all!

John K - would you consider the tip on the K43 BIZ round to be blue? It looks green to me, and is shorter in length (referring to the colored marking) and much much sloppier in application than any of the blue-tip British rounds in my British 7.9 collection when I had it.

Just wondered.

John Moss

The tip of the BIZ appears to have been dipped in green wax to me, it is certainly not a legitimate British military marking for this calibre. Most BIZ rounds did not have their tips coloured, those that did were mainly for export and they were marked with a very definite blue paint as below.

Definitely green, but looks like the lacquer/enamel was thick. Not really a smooth application - a bit “globby”. Likely applied by someone to dress it up, or possibly in the field, such as by an armourer, for easier ID. The latter sounds more romantic, eh?
Leaves me questioning… should I clean off the tips, or go an ‘as is’.
Bob

It would not have been done by an armourer in the field, as it is the wrong color tip for an Incendiary round. Green would be AP. Rounds are known loaded on brass improperly headstamped for the cartridge type, but they usually have a proper color tip properly applied for the load they actually are. I forget right now if it was in .303 or 7.9 x 57 that I encountered this when I was collecting some rifle ammunition - specifically .303 and 7.9 x 57. I gave up both some years ago.

John Moss

Thanks. Think I will clean it off. The h.s. B1Z indicates “Incendiary” though the annulus color threw me. Thought it was black, but after getting them under a 10x microscope and strong lighting I see it is actually a dark blue. And, 2 of the 3 have red bullet/neck sealer, like tracer marking. Now I know why I have never gotten into military cartridges! At least now I can write up a description with more confidence…

Savage - all this research and discovery is what makes collecting challenging and fun. While I am not into the rifle rounds anymore because of space and budget, it is the very reason I find collecting military rounds fascinating. Of course, to a somewhat lesser degree, you can say the same for commercial cartridges. : - )

John Moss

Agree, it is the ‘chase’ that makes the game and the research that is (mentally) fulfilling. With my fields of Anthropology and History (taught both) it goes beyond just the object. I’m sure it does with most of us [cartridge nerds] :)

Have a wonderful Christmas!

Bob