ID needed on Italian 9mm Luger box


#1

I have a photo of this box that dates back 30+ years. Recently acquired one for my collection.Both boxes are empty. My guess, and only a guess, is that it was made for the US market before WWII.

The end labels are:

9m/m LUGER
25 Cartridges

Any help on the manufacturer or the cartridges contained would be a big help.

Thanks!

Lew


#2

An interesting box, as much for the quantity it holds as they rest of the label.
I found, rather to my surprise, that I did not have a single Italian commercial 9 mm Para box in my own collection that was for less than 50 rounds. I checked boxes of other calibers and found that all of the major pre-war Italian ammo companies - Fiocchi, Martignoni and Beaux used a red label like this at one time or another. The printing font could be any of them, or none of them.

So, no hlep at all. Sorry about that Lew.


#3

Thanks for the research John! Appreciated.

I only have three 25 round boxes. One is GFL with an unheadtamped RN bullet and the label is in Italian and includes “Mauser m/m 9 Mod 1916”

The other two are in French and both have truncated bullets. One has cartridges headstamped GFL PARABELLUM 9 and the other * LBC * PARAB 9 which is intereting since the bullets make me thing Glisenti. Both box labels also clearly say “PARABELLUM”

The printing on all three boxes is of a much better class than on the box illustrated above. Perhaps someone has seen a similar box in another caliber.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Does anyone have a box even vaguely similar to this in any caliber???

Any lead would be helpful.

Cheers,
Lew


#5

Hi Lew
I noticed the box is white & the only white box I have is this one which has a dark green Giulio Fiocchi under label, however it is for the C. 380. Now for the interesting part as I have the same empty red box as you I can compare the physical sizes of the two & they are the same, other than height, with this being just a tiny bit shorter by perhaps 1/32"?
Hope this is of help.


#6

Pete - I don’t understand your comment about your green box being for the C.380? According to the label of the green box pictured by you, the box is for the 9 mm Glisenti M910 cartridge, and as such, fits either the 9 mm Glisenti and the 1915 Beretta 9 mm G. pistol. That probably dates your box from before 1923, since otherwise, it would probably just say “Beretta Pistols,” or "Beretta 1915 and 1923 Model Pistols. The M1923 Pistol was also caliber 9 mm Glisenti, looking like a slightly bigger version of a standard Model 1934 .380 auto.

If I am missing something in your comments that makes my observation wrong, forgive me. I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

Nice box, by the way.


#7

Hi John
The box Lew asks about is white with a red label. I have the same box & it is unfortunately also empty.

The white 2-piece half cover box I pictured has a dark green under-label which states it was originally for the C .380.
It is the same size and color of the red labeled box in question. So it would/could have held the 9mm Luger as the red labeled box and has now been over-labeled for the 9mm Glisenti and Beretta.

Lew asked for other boxes that might help identify the red labeled box, thought to be a pre-WW II US market box.
So if the white box it’s self, is the same, & by size & form it is. So this white box I show could perhaps have sat empty & unlabeled until it was needed for the red label?

Which if as you note it was WW I / post WW I era, it would then date it to pre-WW II & very likely make it a product of GFL (the dark green under-label shows the GFL logo).

Thanks for the comment about my box being nice.


#8

Pete, I have a box top in my collection, but only the box top identical to the one you picture. Mine also has the dark green label underneath like the one you picture. My note with it is that it contains truncated bullet rounds and the headstamp is “9M.38F 1944”. I have to believe that the box was used for commercial Glisenti loads made after WWII using Fiocchi M38 cases and old bullets. To John’s point, the label could have also been laying around the factory for decades!

Does your box have any ammunition in it!

If the red box you have came with Jim Ts stuff, then I suspect it is the box I took a photo of MANY-MANY years ago.

Cheers,
Lew


#9

Hi Lew
Both of my boxes are empty. My red-labeled box is not the one you have pictured, but is the same as your red-labeled box.
My red-labeled is clearly a white 2-piece box. That was the only connection I could find in my 9 or other boxes to your red-labelled example, as that was what I thought you were asking about?


#10

Pete, Thanks!!! The box pictured is mine and came out of a local collection. I have had a photo of another box for many years and thought perhaps it was from a visit to Jim many years ago, but I’m pretty sure it was actually in another collection.

Seems strange that a company would export 9mmP ammo in this red box, and not use a similar box for exports in another caliber. I now know of four of these boxes, and they are all in the US so it is likely that this was ammo made (or at least packed) for sale in the US. Could have been WWII Italian ammo repacked and exported to the US just after WWII when there was a big demand for 9mmP and a number of US loaders were making 9mmP reloads out of 38 Special cases. I guess that would explain why this box apparently only shows up in the US and only in 9mmP. It would also explain why there are no manufacturer markings. The other commercial packages of Italian 9mmP all identify the manufacturer as best I remember.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. I appreciate the help.

Maybe, eventually a full box will turn up and be reported on the Forum!

Cheers,
Lew


#11

Hi Lew
You say the green over-labeled box you have is only a top and that it was noted that it contained 1944 dated rounds, Johns point the labels could have been laying around for years is certainly valid. However perhaps it could once have had the contents it was labeled for also? The 1944 era rounds added after the original contents were used & then leading to the thought that those 1944 era rnds. were the originals? All kinds of stuff does get put into empty or partial boxes.
I’m just trying to provide food for thought, not question anything.
What I know about 9mm’s you could fit in a thimble & I’m amazed & thankful at both your & John’s discussions.
keep thy powdre dry


#12

Pete, well possible! Still they were Glisenti rounds in a Glisenti box!!! It is interesting that I was talking to a collector in Germany today and he has the same box, full, with the same dark green label under the top label. His is loaded with 9M38 cases and a truncated, Glisenti style bullet, but the headstamp is GFL.9M38 1941 which is one of the well known WWII dated 9mm Glisenti rounds. Sounds perhaps that GFL was loading small lots of 9mm Glisenti during WWII and using old boxes with new labels. There is also a 1940 9M38 case that was loaded as a Glisenti round. On the otherhand, GFL could have used WWII cases to load Glisenti after the war.

On the other hand, it is possible both were just empty boxes stuffed with cartridges at hand, but since the 9M38 marked loads with truncated bullets are so scarce, that is a low probability answer in my opinion.

Cheers,
Lew


#13

Lew - It was my opinion before I saw your posting that the box you just discussed might be the one for the “9M38” headstamped Glisenti rounds made in 1941, but my track record has been so poor lately that to be frank, I was afraid to say so. I would say the chance it is not the box, and someone simply filled it with those rounds, is from zero to none.

I have the box for the 9 x 25 mm rounds with the same “9M38” headstamp, and it, too, is an old relabeled commercial box, although in this case the label is a reproduction of something hand-typed.

Just my opinion. I hope I am right for a change.


#14

John, We both use to be a lot more sure of what we knew than we are now. The good thing about today is how much fun it is to learn things we already knew.

Cheer up! I just found that the red box that started this thread is a dupe! Congrats!!!

Now maybe you will apply all your talents and figure out what was in it originally…

Cheers,
Lew