ID of arsenal mark on Chinese made 75mm (dated 1949)

Some time back I have found these images in the web showing a Chinese made 75mm HE cartridge made in 1949.

The arsenal mark (open circle with “Y” and horizontal inside) on this projectile is similar to a known one but is still different.
The time frame this projectile was made falls into a very turbulent time in Chinese history and as we know arsenals were moved back and forth, renamed etc.
Some I found to be undocumented in available sources.

Asking for a positive ID of the symbol here would be a bit too much but is anybody has more ammunition items with this arsenal mark on I would be interested to hear (and see) about as that would allow for conclusions on the producht profile and the exact time frame it was used in (in my view max. till 1952).

Of course images with other arsenal marks of the period are also very welcome.

75mm_China

75mm_China-

Alex, this is exactly the same symbol used by Shenyang after the war (formerly Mukden) and usually found in 6.5x51SR headstamps.

Fede, actually the reason why I have asked it that this one is exactly not like the Shenyang logo.
It sure has similarities but this one here is different since the missing part of the circle seems to be intended.
Of course it does not rule out Shenyang but as said in this particular form it was not seen on SAA.

Do you happen to have photos showing this particular variant on any other ammo?

I don’t know if the broken top is intentional or not, but you can find the Shenyang symbol in 75 mm cases as well. Example from a 1950 case:

c

Fede, this logo is known and of course undisputed.
But where is the broken top?

Could you maybe show the complete headstamp of the 75mm case?

Alex, I don’t think it would be a different arsenal because of the missing top on the stencil.

Below you can see complete headstamp, also from 1950 but oriented upside-down.

What is the source of your picture? Do you have a picture of the headstamp?

Fede, thaks!
The one in the pics I have found in the web (no headstamp image there unfortunately) seems to be this way on purpose.
I saw several variants of the Shenyang and this one is quite unusual.
As you say likelyness it being Shenyang is high but I wanted to see more such logos and evaluate the items they were observed on.

The broken-line symbol appears to be painted on, while the solid line ones appear to be stamped into the metal. If painted, perhaps the broken lines have something to do with making a stencil for painting it. If you made a complete circle rather than a have some broken lines, the symbol part of the cardboard, wood or metal stencil would simply fall off of the sheet.

Just a thought. I could be all wet about this. I seem to recall a similar anomaly with a painted on NATO mark on some sort of container.

John M.

John M.

John, the “bridge bars” for the painting template are different from what we see above, the open section of the circle at 12h pos. is not explainable by that.

Just a thought. The painting on the projectile in the first picture of this thread looked much like other painted markings I have seen obviously down with templates. Guess I was wrong.

John

John, I am not sure if my English may have failed but I mean the here dotted line which are marking the area where should be a yellow section of a circle while the “bridges” (here marked with arrows) are the normal.

bridges

Alex - your English is fine. About the top of the circle being missing, the markings on the pictured projectile are far from perfect. Note the “4” and the cross-like symbol. My thinking was simply that the top of the circle was either simply worn off, or was missed in the painting process. You will note that the the figures “4 9 9” have breaks as well. This is what led me to believe that these markings were painted using a stencil (template), as that is not at all unusual for markings so-applied.

However, I know little or nothing about artillery rounds, so as I said, I am evidently wrong.

Looking very closely at the photo of the Shenyang symbol, as it appears on my screen, their appears to be a faint, very thin curved line coming from the right hand top of the “V” at the top of the “Y”-like figure, also in the same golden-yellow color, like a partial closure of the circle, but that may be an illusion.

At any rate, I accept fully your judgment, as you have forgotten more about this subject than I will ever know.

Thanks for your very well-done reply, though. Wish I knew how to use red figures to point things out on a picture.

John M.

John, we all may be wrong of course. This is why I had asked if there are more images with this symbol.
Wether repeating the above or confirming that the template here (what ever it was) might be broken or so.

Actually it does not look like a stencil as then the “bridges” would not be required since the raised portions of a stamp are supported through the background rubber.

Anyhow, I hope we will see more images maybe.

As for arrows and simple drawing in a photo is very simple when you will use IrfanView (available for free). An image viewer (the viewing function there is already way better than most I ever saw) which has some handy side functions which are handled really easy.
If you would be here it would take me about 1 minute to explain.
Hence me advertising this little program more than once.

Alex,

No need for further explanation, although I didn’t quite understand the description of the stencil. The item I am talking about is usually made of cardboard, but can be of any material, I suppose, and the marking that is to be applied is cut out of the background, so that the person using it can simply spray or brush paint the marking on without having to be an artist, as it matters not at all if paint overlaps onto the non-cutout portions of the template. If there is some symbol that stands alone with other elements surrounding it, there must be bridges to keep it attached to the symbol as a whole. A poor explanation, but can’t think of one better. If you just cut out the circle, you would have one big hole in the template, and the painting would be nothing but a big yellow ball.

Again, though, I have no idea if that is what is going on here. I have used stencils or templates, not really sure which is the right name (maybe both) in painting before.

Probably more than enough on the subject. As I say, I am not at all sure I am correct, and how the symbol was painted, other than perhaps explaining the reason for the cutouts, is not important. It is obviously the same as the more normal version of the Shenyang symbol.

John