ID on reusable 9x19 adaptor or some such thing


#1

Today I have found this 9x19 made of translucent plastic. It’s head is made to receive a shot shell primer. It was taken from a recently given up US Army base in Germany. The story it came with said it that is a special blank.
Can anyone ID it?


#2

EOD - I hope someone can answer this for you. I have had dozens of these over the years, and have never gotten a story that was documented with them. Not even to what country it was made in. They show up in some quantity in the US so I think they probably are American, although to date “they are German, Belgian, French, British and unknown.” Those are answers I have received from other collectors, none of whom I would consider in any way but the best light. Oh yes, USA was in there to.

Main reason for posting, if you find a black one like it, don’t get excited. I have fired several of these, and they turn a very even black color inside, the color of course protected from rubbing off because it is internal. It is generlaly so even it looks like they were molded in black until you put a really good magnifying glass on one. I got a black one with a snapped primer, and had it in my collection (may still be there for interest, I don’t recall), but I got suspicious, and when I was given about twenty of these things, I decided to fire a few in my Browning. they all turned black just like the one I had.

To me, they look like they might have been meant to be loaded with a lead ball or something like that, as a short-range round, but I will say that while not approaching the sound of a ball round, when fired in my basement, it made a pretty good bang! I still don’t see it as a blank using just the primer.

Maybe Lew can tell us what this really is.


#3

To echo John, I’ve seen adaptors like this in machined brass for firing .177 and .22 pellets through centrefire firearms fitted with bore reducers; I’ve never seen one in plastic, though.


#4

So far I thought that the use of plastic is taking away the ability to shoot at least metal projectiles if any.


#5

They are very similar to toy cartridges I saw. They where loaded with a plastic ball ( 6mm) or a color ball.
The “loaded” round would be feed to a realistic pistol by a magazine. The
pistol could be loaded by pulling back the slide and transport a cartridge in the barrel. The plastic ball was fired by gas and the system eject the “fired” cartridge.


#6

I think it would take an unusually sturdy “toy” gun to handle the shotgun primer in these rounds. Also, I frankly can’t picture selling a true toy gun that uses any primer like this, with youngsters as the usual market for that sort of thing. The primer alone would propel a light plastic ball at very high velocity, I would think, as well as having the flame from the primer. Not really “the stuff that toys are made of,” to paraphrase the Maltese Falcon (“the stuff that dreams are made of”).

That said, it doesn’t mean that the ball used with these, if there even was one, could not have been plastic. It may well have been, again if that’s what these cartridges were used with. It might also be used with soft lead shot. I would think the cartridges might stand up to that. Aside from turning black, the two or three I fired in my Browning pistol showed no ill effects for the heat and “power” of the shotgun primers being ignited.

They probably weren’t meant to be reloaded many times.

Am hoping one of the 9mm Luger specialists will know what these really are.
Lew is away and busy right now, but may chime in on this one in a few days. He usually checks out any threads on 9mm.


#7

about all I know for sure about these is that the FBI did use them in training. For exactly what kind of training I do not know.


#8

EOD

I have also a 9x19 made out of transucent plastic

There is a primer in it…
but for what use ???

regards
gyrojet


#9

Gyrojet - I think you have the same round that this thread started out with, except yours still has the primer. I got a whole bunch of those at one time.
It is the round I have been discussion, whether I judged the first picture right or not. I think both are the same.


#10

Hi John

Yes that was also my thinking(same round)
I have this cartridge for about 10 years at my collection.

regards
gyrojet


#11

My notes say that this is an early blank by Firearms Training Systems Inc (FATS) of Norcross GA. Mine came from an FBI trainer. These blanks actuated a laser device that interacted with an electronic target screen on which were projected target scenes. Each blank would initiate a quick laser dot which would be scored. The systems were delivered to the FBI in 1989 and were subsequently delivered to quite a few military and police units. The plastic body was reportedly made by a small plastics firm in Norcross.

In the early 1990s I tried out one of the FATS systems, but this one had progressed to replica guns that fired the laser dot. The targets were flashed up and you had a very short time to decide who were the bad guys and who were the good in each scene. Later I say one with moving targets which I thought was FATS, but can’t be sure now. I asked about the blanks when I tried the FATS but this location had never heard of one that used blanks.

Company material implies there were never real guns used with FATS, but also says that the guns could be reloaded just like real weapons. I suspect this blank was used with a “toy” weapon that functioned with a blank rather than a real weapon with a laser adaptor.

The company has grown and is now Meggitt Training Systems, 296 Brogdon Road, Suwanee, GA, 30024 USA as close as I can tell. When I looked up the company, it looks like they were always in Suwanee, so the Norcross location I got is probably an error.

The full corporate history is on answers.com/topic/firearms-training-systems but the short version is as follows:

Firearms Training Systems (FATS) allows customers to practice gunplay without mortal consequences: The company uses digital technology and laser-emitting weapons to provide realistic weapons training. FATS’ systems integrate video and digitized imagery with laser-emitting firearms that have the look and feel of the real thing – they even recoil and require loading. Simulated arms range from archery bows and semiautomatic pistols to anti-armor rocket launchers and cannons. FATS products are used by law enforcement, military, and security personnel in the US and overseas. UK-based defense concern Meggitt PLC owns FATS

Firearms Training Systems, Inc., better known by the acronym FATS, provides weapons training for law enforcement agencies, military forces, and individuals. Its headquarters are in Suwanee, Georgia, which at the time of the company’s founding in 1984 was still a sleepy town some 45 minutes north of downtown Atlanta. By the late 1990s, however, Suwanee was another bustling suburb to one of the nation’s fastest-growing metropolises, and FATS had become what one analyst called “the ‘Kleenex’ of firearms training.” International from its origins as the brainchild of South African race-car driver Jody Scheckter, the company has facilities not only in the United States, but in Canada, Barbados, Great Britain, The Netherlands, and Singapore. Among its clients are the U.S. Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps, along with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF), the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), and the Los Angeles Police Department. Its international clients include the armies of Great Britain, Italy, The Netherlands, Singapore, and many other countries. With the attractiveness of simulation over live-fire exercises–both in terms of safety and of cost–it is likely that the client list of FATS will continue to grow.

Principal Subsidiaries

FATS, Inc.; FSS, Inc.; DART International, Inc.; Firearms Training Systems Limited (U.K.); F.A.T.S. Singapore PTE Ltd.; F.A.T.S. Foreign Sales Corporation (Barbados); Firearms Training Systems Netherlands, B.V. (Netherlands); FATS Canada, Inc.; Simtran Technologies, Inc. (Canada); FATS Canada Holdings, Inc.


#12

John, I also have a translucent black round that is very similar to the clear one pictured above. I thought it was a later version since it has an unfired shotshell primer BUT!!! The clear round in my collection has a flat nickel primer in a copper cup. The back blank has a domed brass primer in a brass cup. I decided to shine a light down inside it and the blackness was streaky and uneven but would not wipe out with water and soap on a bit of cloth. I have about decided that what I have is a FATS dummy that has been fired and then reloaded with a new shotshell primer. Thanks John!!!


#13

Lew, thanks a lot, I knew you will have the answer!

I have seen a hand full of those and none were “loaded”. Did they probably come without primers originally? Would make sense if they are reloadable.
The fired ones I have seen (2) were not really black inside and had brass colored primer sleeves, they had just some residue which was still 70% translucent, so a “black” one likely must have been fired several times indicating as you said already a reloading?


#14

I suspect that they came unloaded, or could have been supplied unloaded as an option. All the previous ones I have seen had the nickel primer and the copper cup, but I guess these could have all been loaded at the FBI. The fired one I got probably came from a US Army source originally and could have been loaded by them, particularly since you found ones without primers.

Lew


#15

EOD - the ones I fired had never been fired before, and I felt that the primers were probably originally loaded in them at “the factory,” but I don’t know now if that is true or not. However, when I fired a couple the first time, they turned totally and evenly black inside, so even it looks like they are even black outside, but of course, that is an illusion caused by the very clear plastic they are made of. I am sure different primers might create different effects. Maybe even different barrel lengths would. Mine were fired in My FN GP 9mm Pistol.

I should get some more of these and shoot a couple of more, and then try to clean one out. I never tried that, more than just putting a dry cue-tip in one, and some black come out but not enough to change the effect that it was a black-plastic cartridge.

I think a friend of mine has a bunch of these. I got some from him initially, but they have all been picked out of my dupes by visitors to my house, it seems, as couldn’t find any the other day.

I couldn’t even find one of the blackened ones, although I know that I must have kept one just as an example of what happens when they are fired.

I will also shine a strong light behind either one I have already fired if I can find it, or a newly fired one. I didn’t really ever check the blackened fired on for translucense, but rather just looking at it for transparency. The two are not the same, of course.

Lew, as always, thanks for the information. My prediction that you would know about them was right - not hardly a gamble on my part.


#16

John, you are likely right that different primers will have a different effect on the adaptors. Thanks for sharing your experience.


#17

Alex - if I can get more of the rounds and do an update, I will let you know what happens. Maybe I’ll find a CAS shooter that loads his own shotgun-ammo (I don’t), and if he has primers compatible with these things, try a couple of different primers. I can probably get the others out live. It would be interesting to see. I will also try cleaning one out after firing to see how “permanent” the staining from firing is.