ID Projectile found in the Thames


#1

These pictures were posted at a Face Book ammo collecting sight. The projectile measures approximately 11mm across the base. I am hoping that someone here can ID this projectile by the figures stamped in the lead base.

Thanks-Curt


#2

Possibly a 11.4X57mmR Spanish Reformado : http://www.municion.org/altres/11_4x57R.htm

Guessing here: T = Fabrica Nacional De Toledo (Spain), Lot 3, 1891
Brian


#3

I was thinking it is a FMJ 11mm Gras. I was reading the 91 upside down and thinking this was from 1916. I think your guess is better than mine, but I have pulled several Reformado projectiles and they all have a slightly dished plain base. The Reformado rounds were loaded and or reloaded at Cuban arsenals. I don’t have a Toledo projectile to compare.


#4

Why would an 11 mm Reformado or Gras bullet be found in the Thames? What about one of the anti-Zepplin machine gun cartridges?


#5

Wasn’t the 11mm Gras the basis of the anti-baloon rounds used in the 11mm Vickers machine gun.


#6

A surprising number of non-British pieces are found in the Thames - American, French, Russian, German etc. They come from a number of sources: British troops bringing back souvenirs, foreign troops (e.g. Canadian, American) stationed in London or ariel bombing (German), dropped from merchant ships at the port of London. It’s less clear why a Spanish projectile from 1891 would be there though - a merchant ship would be the most likely source.


#7

Could it be a .5 Vickers? No mention of diameter but profile suggests the possibility.


#8

Yes, and there are also FMJ 11mm Gras rounds that were made in order to comply with the Hague Convention prohibition against expanding bullets. These rounds are often passed off as the anti balloon rounds to unsuspecting collectors. 11mm Vickers rounds with American style headstamps are most certain to be authentic anti-balloon rounds.
Curt


#9

The original Face Book post says 11mm diameter and 26mm length. I am guessing that these are ruler measurements but that would still be close enough to rule out the the .5 Vickers.
Curt


#10

Brian:
I thought about your suggestion overnight and have come up with one argument against it. The base of the Reformado is visibly larger than the body of the projectile and usually has a bevel. This does not rule out the 11.15mm Spanish Remington. Municion.org shows FMJ rounds for the original 11.15mm Spanish Remington. With my limited Spanish, I can see that these are reloads, but I am not sure if they represent the Bannerman “11.15mm Reformed Reformado” rounds that were made by resizing complete live 11.4mm Reformado cartridges. The translating service won’t run for me.

Curt


#11

My first guess was also Reformado, for whatever that’s worth.

I have three slightly different pulled Reformado bullets. The profile does some what match this mystery one but all three have a solid flat base.


#12

Curt,

I obviously missed the Facebook post on the projectile. Thanks for the correction.

Tom