Id Unknown N°5

And the fifth;
Inside neck dia: 7.05mm - .277"
Neck dia: 7.85mm - .309"
Neck L: 8.80mm - .346"
Shoulder dia: 10.00mm - .393"
Base dia: 10.60mm - .417"
Rim dia: 12.20mm - .480"
Case L: 46.12mm - 1.816"
Necked-down 8.15x46R or 7.5x46.7R Jagd???

Scally, your speculations seem to be on the right track. This appears to be an attempt to produce the 7.5x46.7R Austrian Hunting from the 8.15x46R. Dimensions appear close to the Roth catalog drawings.

The 7.5x46.7R Austrian Hunting (A60 in European Sporting Cartridges) was only listed by Roth with case #705 and was shown in the c1888-c1910 Roth catalogs. This case uses a flat base and appears to be based on the 8.15x46.5R Frohn case (GSP7) necked down to 7.5mm. A c1911-1914 Franz Neuber catalog listed this cartridge as being produced by Roth. However, examples are not known to exist.

I have not heard or seen that great "Karl Ziegler . Görlitz . " hs before. I know nothing of “Karl Ziegler” but Görlitz is in Germany. The hs style looks like GECADO production - they produced many different 8.15x46R proprietary hs for gunmakers and retailer’s offering reloading services for Target shooting.

I would be very surprised if such an extremely obscure Austrian calibre was produced in Germany for an obscure German company/individual.

Most likely as you say, necked down 8.15x46R to 7.5mm. The strange think about even this suggestion is why would someone do this to such rare 8.15x46R cases. Normally you would think that Utendoerffer, Gecado or other common 8.15x46R cases would be used.

I will do more research on “Karl Ziegler” and someone else maybe able to shed more light on this case. A great find whatever the truth is.


Thanks for the reply, browsing on the internet i found 2 Karl Zieglers;

1; Karl Ziegler * 1866-1935 * German artist * Koller auctions - 'Self portrait after hunting’
2; Karl Ziegler * 1898-1973 * German chemist * Nobel price winner with Guilio Natta 1963 for their work on plastics and polymers.


Pascal, I did some searching too but was unable to relate those two persons to Görlitz or to the Weapons industry. I quess that Karl Ziegler may well be a reasonably common name ?

Another possibility did occur to me though that could explain why such a special hs was found on such a unique calibre. Sometimes in the past, special cartidges were produced as a present or tribute to a well known person who was in the arms industry or had an interest in guns. These were sometimes created in a unique calibre and were included with a weapon chambered for the cartridge. Examples include the 9.3x66 Erkki Kauppi and the 3.5x28.5 Mexican Miniature Mauser. This is pure speculation but would explain why “such an extremely obscure Austrian calibre was produced in Germany for an obscure German company/individual.”

Anyway until more info is ‘discovered’ I doubt that we will ever know ? Now onto those other unknown rifle cartridges…