Identification please-357BAT-45ACP-9mmGeco-9mmGFL


#1

Hi, I have 3 cartridges, were I need help.

First one looks like a Action Safety Bullet or called in german “Blitz-Action-Trauma (BAT)”.
I have a 9mm cartridge of this, but was the cartridge also manufactured in .357 Magnum?
Or is it a fake?

Here some pictures:


The next one… what`s the Name of this 2 cartridges?



I also get an fragitable cartridge from Fiocchi. But this kind of type for me is unknown.

Thanks for your help…


#2

Manuel,

The first cartridge, a .357 Magnum, is legitimate. We used to sell it in our store. A dear friend of mine from Germany was visiting, and when he came down to the store with me, he went thru our stock ammo for things to buy, and when he saw the Geco BAT rounds in .357, he was almost incredulous. Seems because that type of ammo was basically illegal in many European countries, including Germany, and also because of the caliber, way more popular in America than in Europe, he had never even heard of this caliber being made in the BAT type.

The second round, an Israeli .45 Auto cartridge, is just a standard target loading, probably with a 185 grain bullet. That is quite a normal FMJ Semi-wadcutter bullet, sometimes referred to, erroneously in my view, as “.45 Wadcutter.” It is a very popular style in the USA especially for match-shooting, as it will feed in the Colt/Browning pistol, sometimes even in pistols with unaltered chamber mouths, although it was quite regular, in the accurizing process of building a real match gun, to open the mouth somewhat to improve function, as many pistols would jam with these ammo loaded with these bullets due to shape and overall cartridge length. Today, most of the better .45 Auto-caliber pistols come from the factory with the mouth already shaped for semi-wadcutter (helps function with many hollow-point bullets as well), since properly done, it in know way changes or hurts the function of the pistols when used with the
230 grain FMJ RN ammunition.

I have not seen the Geco with the odd bullet, that appears to have a brass half-jacket that barely shows about the case mouth. I don’t know what it is. Geco and MEN of Germany have produced a huge amount of bullet types in this caliber, many of them experimental, and that’s about all I can say about it. Perhaps Lew Curtis will chime in and gives us both a real answer.

I don’t know what to say about the Fiocchi frangible. I have not checked my collection, but I seem to recall the odd, “semi-military” dated headstamp is found with this bullet. It is simply a frangible-bullet cartridge, as you said yourself. The red primer seal usually denotes a lead-free or reduced-lead load on Fiocchi pistol ammunition.

I hope this is of some help, anyway.


#3

Thanks alot for your help.


#4

The first frangible bullets by Fiocchi appeared in 1990. Your round is loaded with a so-called PRN bullet ( plastic round nose). It is a frangible plastic bullet also loaded in other calibers.
At least in Italy the 9 mm Para box was different than the other ones and similar to the ones used for military cartridges


#5

The third one (Geco 9mm) is a “FZ 61”, which is apparently rare and not often seen. There is an IAA thread about it here: http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8114


#6

Wow, thanks for this great informations!


#7

Hi,
that is not correct, because there is no Cartridge type FZ61.
The original thread shows the markings: FZ: 61 N.G., this means:
FertigungsZeichen 61 NG which furthermore gives the fabrication date: 21. April of 1986
FZ itself is similar to Fabrication-code or Fabrication-date

The name of this cartridges was given on the box as: " 8Gramm Bleigeschoss with Hecknapf" 124grs Lead-Bullet with rear cap or base cap, or capped base…sorry, i do not knew the right word for this part in english…but I hope, you can understand, what i mean…

Forensic


#8

I’m from Germany so its ok :-)


#9

It is called a “gas check” in English.


#10

similar, but usually a gas-check is not that high, and this part of the bullet in question is not acting to avoid contact of the burning powder gases with the base of the lead bullet. This “Napf” or “Cap” IS the part of the bullet, which takes the rifling, whereas the gascheck usually only takes the “flame” away from the bullets base to avoid leading, and permitting the use of “hotter” loads.
All my gas-checks from RCBS or others, which you can buy for reloading, are at maximum 2mm in height.

Forensic


#11

Forensic - one common term for that type of short jacket as on the Geco 9mm round in question is simply “half-jacket.” You are right - gas checks are shorter, and probably would not
be a correct term for a jacket like this. A gas check would not even fulfill the same purpose as the half jacket shown, since the gas check is normally the same diameter, or close to it, of the lead projectile to which it is affixed, while in the case of this Geco 9mm, because the lead portion is reduced in diameter, and like does not engage the rifling, the half-jacket not only acts as a gas seal, but also to engage the rifling of the weapon it is fired in. At least, that is how it appears to me by looking at the picture of the cartridge. I don’t have one of these rounds to take measurements from, so I suppose my answer comes under the heading of “conjecture.”