IMI .41 and .50 AE


#1

Were the rounds headstamped “IMI .41 AE” and “IMI .50 AE” manufactured in Israel or somewhere in the USA? My two specimens have nickel primer caps with clear red annulus. Thanks in advance for any help.


#2

Pretty sure that all the IMI brass was made in Israel, perhaps the SPEER brass in both calibers also.


#3

I thought I had the answer to your question … but when I dug out my box of 50 AE, the box is labeled Magnum Research and the headstamp is “SPEER 50-AE” I have a box of IMI 41 AE around here somewhere, I will post when I find it.


#4

The dash between the “50” and the “AE” on Speer brass indicates the case was made in Israel; it means the same thing on .41 AE case with the SPEER headstamp. In the .50 AE, Speer has also have brass made by Starline with the headstamp “SPEER 50:AE”.

As far as I know, all of the IMI-headstamped cases in these two calibers were made in their own factories in Israel.


#5

I am not about to argue with John Moss, so I will just state for the record that the box of Magnum Research .50 Action Express ammo mentioned in my earlier post is marked: “Manufactured by Blount, Inc. for Magnum Research, Inc.” and “Made in U.S.A./FABRIQUE AUX E.U.”

I don’t even pretend to know all (any?) of the rules for using the “Made in U.S.A” lable, but if the cases are made in Israel shouldn’t the box be marked “Assembled in U.S.A.” like some car parts I bought recently?

Maybe it is the neato-keen plastic ammo box that qualifies for "Made in U.S.A. !!


#6

I think that if the ammunition is loaded in the United States, that the boxes can be marked “made in USA.” I am not sure, but it may be based on the percentage of foreign materials involved. I can’t say I am positive about that, but I am positive about the case identifications, from their headstamps, that I made. Case-maker coding has become a very common thing now in ammunition headstamps. Everyone is playing the “dot” game.

By the way - anyone can argue with me. All I ask is documentation or reasons why I am wrong. I am wrong about as often as I am right, it seems, on this Forum. That’s o.k., although I wish it wasn’t so, because we all learn that way. If everyone worries about posting because they might be wrong, we won’t learn when we are incorrect.


#7

Thanks for your input everyone. now I can put them in my records as being made by Israeli Military Industries, Tel Aviv, Israel. Is there any better location information than simply “Tel Aviv”?


#8

Falcon - all of my IMI box variations for the two “Action Express” calibers show the address as:

Isreal Military Industries Ltd.
P. O. Box 1044
Rammat-Jasharon

However, most of my literature from IMI shows:

Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI)
Intetegrated Security Systems Group
Small Arms Ammunition Division
P. O. Box 678 Nazareth Illit 17106
Isreal

One of the online catalogs speaks of the “Yitzhak Plant” being the national small arms laboratory and production house, providing all the needs of Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and other government agencies, including law enforcement." I don’t know what this means in relation to Nazareth Illit or to Rammat-Hasharon. Perhaps Jon Cohen can tell us - he has been there.

Note that the name of the company, by the way is ISREAL MILITARY INDUSTRIES, and not “Israeli” Military Industries, a commonly made error. I do it myself all the time even though I know better. My fingers just type “Israeli” rather than “Israel.” It is also the Israel Defense Force, not the “Israeli Defense Force.”


#9

John, you really know your stuff big time. I love learning about the corporate history and corporate relationships of ammunition manufacturers. I am always blown away by how much you and others on this forum know about that stuff, especially the older WW1 & 2 ammo plants and any era that has to do with Israel.

Jason


#10

Jason - don’t be too blown away. It is only because of keeping a good library that I know these things. Addresses and correct corporate names are among the easiest things to find if you have a good collection of “paper” within your collecting field. Most catalogs carry a name and address for the issuing company, and while very occasionally, the name and address on catalogs don’t keep right up to date with corporate name changes or address changes, they still provide a good reference. Cartridge Boxes do also, with the same caveat that I made for catalogs. Most companies don’t throw away thousands of dollars worth of already-maufactured boxes because of small changes to corporate names, or sometimes even for changes of addresses. Again, though, they are a great source of information.


#11

Now you put me on the spot!
The Ramat HaSharon facility is the corporate offices and major production facility. Natzeret is the small-arms ammo factory, an hour or so north of Ramat HaSharon. As I understand it, all or most of the company components are now known as Israel Weapons Industries (IWI).


#12

Jon, do you know where my .41 and .50 Action express rounds were likely to have been made?


#13

Jon - thanks for the information. I just want to add something about spelling for everyone, so they do not get too confused. Jon’s spelling of the various place names is undoubtedly correct and based on his knowledge of the language. However, I need to clairfy that the names of the various locations, as I spelled them, were all taken directly off of literature or cartridge boxes made and printed in Israel, and probably represent a Western spelling based on the Roman Alphabet, rather than a translation directly from the Hebrew alphabet.


#14

Regardless of how you get the info, it is impressive, John :-) Thanks A LOT!!!

Jason


#15

Jon: Israel Weapons Industries is just IMI’s former Small Arms Division. It was cut loose in 2005. IMI’s other divisions, including their ammunition facilities, still operate as IMI.


#16

Daniel,
Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t sure of all the details.

John,
No special wisdom or language skills…I just try to recall the road and highway signs!


#17

IMI Has a rather mixed role in Israel because it makes ammunition for both civilian and military markets equally. Since Israel has a virtually 100% armed population which forms a sort of unofficial militia the market is big.
They also export a lot of ammunition around the world to earn foreign currency which Israel badly needs.

Don’t confuse them with Imperial Metal Industries in Britain who own Eley because you will find IMI appearing sometimes on old Eley, (and I think Kynoch,) boxes.


#18

Just a little oddity. I have just checked some 7.62 IMI cases I have in my garage and they are headstamped .308W. They came from very mil-spec FMJ ammunition about ten years ago. No big deal but its the little details that make it interesting.
Falcon - do you want one?


#19

Vince,
Israeli society is FAR from 100% armed. Although all citizens serve in the army, it is not a real gun-sport country. Carry permits are exceedingly difficult to get and relatively few people carry. Last I knew, civilians were restricted to only 100 rounds a year, and only for the weapon they have on license. The home market is very tiny. I don’t even recall any commercial boxes in Hebrew, as they would be for home sale.


#20

As far as Israel being heavily armed civilian-wise, I think the 100% estimate holds closer to being true on the home-to-home level, than it does on the person-to-person level (maybe what Vince meant?). So every person does not have a firearm, but the majority of homes might since many homes have somebody serving in either the military or police. Any Israeli IAA members to clarify?